CREDITS

Written, Produced, & Performed by:

Cat Blackard & Jessica Mudd

​

Original Score & Sound Design:

Jessica Mudd

​

Album Art: Cat Blackard

Sprites: Benichi

Special Thanks: kenisu

TRANSCRIPT

[Omniverse Audio Brand]

[90s phone ring and pick up - super abbreviated, like: bleep, clack]

CAT

Hey, this is Cat!

JESS

And Jess

CAT

You know, “MOTHER,” She Wrote is free to listen to, but it’s not free to make.

JESS

So please consider supporting our work on Patreon.

CAT

You’ll get early, ad-free episodes of this show and all the storytelling podcasts we create. 

JESS

Head to Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia to chip in and join our community of world-saving wunderkind.

CAT

Oh and - heads up: this episode contains light discussion of religious and personal trauma.

JESS

Please use your best judgment when listening… and take care of yourself. 

CAT & JESS

Love youuuu.

[phone disconnect sound]

[Dimensional Slip theme begins]

DIMENSIONAL SLIP HOST

You cast your onyx hook into the ocean of consciousness and slide beyond… into another dimension. A dimension of sound, a dimension of dreams, a dimension of love. You’re crossing over into a realm of insightful interviews, expanding the themes and discussions of the MOTHER series. You’ve just been transported… through a dimensional slip.

[Dimensional Slip theme fades out]

CAT

Welcome to Dimensional Slip, intermittent interludes in “MOTHER,” She Wrote’s journey - where we speak with guests from a multitude of backgrounds and delve deeper into the themes, media, and fandom that make up the tapestry of the EarthBound experience. 

I’m falling through a time zone, I’m steppin' in a slide zone, I’m your moody blue-blue hostess, Cat Blackard. And with me, as always, is…

JESS

Let’s do the dimensional slip agaaaaaain! Let’s do the dimensional slip- Wait.

Cat, what the heck is a dimensional slip?

CAT

Well, it’s just a jump to the left. And also, scattered throughout the MOTHER Encyclopedia are these fascinating short articles called “Dimensional Slips”. They’re named after a PSI ability that Ninten has, which we’ve mentioned before. It’s called 4D-Slip in EarthBound Beginnings, but the ability is called “Dimensional Slip” in Japan. 

The “Dimensional Slip” articles in the Encyclopedia are all written by different people, from a wide range of backgrounds: authors, film directors… a religious studies professor, Shigeru Miyamoto wrote a Dimensional Slip, and there’s even an article from - quote: “Japan's foremost figure implementing proof-based parapsychology research and PSI power development”.

JESS

Wow, that’s just enough to drive you insay-yay-yay-yaine! <laughs>

CAT

<laughs> Yeah! Yeah. 

JESS

Which is so weird and awesome! These articles are all super-fascinating and you can read the translations over on - where else? kenisu’s MOTHER Encyclopedia page.

CAT

With us for our Dimensional debut is a voice you’ve just met, but somehow you get the feeling they’ve been with you the whole time - it’s Sarah Rhea Werner!

JESS

Sarah plays Ana on “MOTHER,” She Wrote. And Sarah and Cat are also both actors in the sci-fi audio drama  Moonbase Theta, Out as well as The Call of Cthulhu Mystery Program’s upcoming season. 

CAT

It’s true. But Sarah’s possibly best known as the writer and lead actor in their own sci-fi audio drama, Girl in Space - one of the most beloved all-ages audio dramas of the podcast era. 

Sarah also hosts a podcast called Write Now (that’s “write” with a W) with Sarah Rhea Werner and a newsletter called “Dear Creators” - both are amazing resources for writers with tips, tricks, and importantly inspiration and encouragement… to write. I mention that in particular, because one of Sarah’s newsletters inadvertently provoked my interpretation of Ana, before we even considered casting them in “MOTHER,” She Wrote. 

JESS

In this episode, we’re exploring Sarah and Ana’s shared life experiences and discuss something very important to the fabric of MOTHER: all-ages science fiction, which is, as I understand it, is how you and Sarah became friends.

CAT

Yup - that’s what bein’ friends is about, it turns out. Closing out the episode, we’re including the first episode of Girl in Space, so if you’re missing our regularly scheduled audio drama stay tuned. But first… it’s The Mother’s Day Times!

[The Mother’s Day Times theme starts]

JESS

We’ll kick things off with a community update - reminding you that Cat and I will be in London, England the weekend of September 9th. So, if you live in or around there and would like to meet up, drop us a line!

CAT

And I’ll be in Glasgow, Scotland the remainder of that month and the same goes for meeting up there. Write in at dearmothershewrote@gmail.com or talk to us on our Discord server, linked to at mothershewrote.earth. There IS a Glasgow meetup in the works.

JESS

We’ve got more Dimensional Slip interviews coming, but with travel and getting the remainder of the season completed-

CAT

And just life in general, I’m still partially living out of boxes after the move. 

JESS

-we miiiiight need to shift to putting out one episode a month during this mid-season quote-unquote “break”.

CAT

I recall someone saying something about not thinking it’s good to work too hard…

JESS

For updates on releases, we’ll keep you posted via these Mother’s Day Times segments, but for up to the minute updates, there’s always our DIscord, but there’s also… the dumpster fire of social media!

CAT

Such fun. We’re phasing out our presence on the app formerly known as Twitter, so if you’re following us there, or aren’t - but would like to follow us somewhere - you can find “mothershewrote” (all one word) on Tumblr and Bluesky. There’s links on mothershewrote.earth.

I’ve got a fun update that’s not “MOTHER,” She Wrote related, but is pizza related.

JESS

Ooh! 

CAT

Aside from the MOTHER Trilogy, one of my media passions is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and to celebrate the release of the new film, Mutant Mayhem, I’ve appeared as a guest on an episode of the podcast My Big Score with Christopher Dole. It’s a podcast where artists discuss the film scores that inspire them, and in the latest episode Chris and I are talking about John Du Prez’s 1990 score to the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles film. That episode is out now! Just search for My Big Score.

JESS

Well, cowabunga! <laughs>

CAT

<laughs> Yeah.

JESS

Now it’s time to reach into the mail bag and read some listener letters with awesome insights.

Saga wrote in and gave us some context to the old man who’s lost his dentures. You may remember, I didn’t realize he was the same person as the “old sage” that the game’s NPCs were talking about because they said he lived on a “mountain” but to me it looked like a hill. Well, Saga has clarified that - they say, the use of the word “mountain” - “yama” in Japanese - can actually be used to describe any slight bump on the ground. They say it “often makes translations very awkward and frustrates anyone who has been near actual mountains, or maybe just me. My (least) favorite example of this phenomenon is Mt. Mikasa, which is a prominent pile of dirt in Hibiya Park in central Tokyo and reaches a breath-taking nine meters in altitude.” 

CAT

<laughs> Amazing. By that metric, the old man definitely lives on a mountain. Thanks for clearing that up, Saga! 

In terms of MOTHER facts, Biozilla recently shared the previously obscure fact that Shigesato Itoi based Lloyd's appearance on the author Ryotaro Shiba, who's one of Japan's best-loved writers of all time. He's known for historical novels, many of which have been adapted into films, as well as historical and cultural essays on Japan, and it's relationship to the rest of the world. What that has to do with Lloyd, I don't know, but Shiba does have a certain kind of Andy Warhol, but more Lloyd, kind of look to him. His haircut, his glasses…

JESS:

Yeah, you're right. You can plainly see it as soon as you look at the photo of him. It's hard to convey someone's essence, I guess, in a little 8-bit sprite, but once you point it out, you can't not see it.

CAT:

Yeah. Especially if you look at the figurines - Something I don't think we've really ever mentioned on the show, but we ought to have, is that in the promotional images for MOTHER 1 and 2, they use a lot of photographs of figurines of the characters and enemies - these beautiful little sculptures. So, if you look at the figurine of Lloyd, there’s a striking and very noticeable resemblance between him and Ryotaro Shiba.

JESS

RandomRants wrote in and shared some notes on Ninten’s name that we hadn’t mentioned on the show before. There’s two pieces of non-canonical, but officially licensed media where he has a name other than Ninten. In the MOTHER novelization he’s named “Ken”, and there’s a really detailed pen and paper choose-your-own-adventure book - but really it’s more of a game - called “MOTHER: Invasion from the Unknown”, where Ninten is called Douglas or “Doug” Halloway, Ana’s last name is “Brewton”, Lloyd’s last name is “Schnieder”, they’re all distant cousins, and story explicitly takes place in Maine.

CAT

Ah - Stephen King’s Dominion.

JESS

Yes- home to spooky towns like Jerusalem’s Lot, which is mentioned explicitly in the book. Both of the MOTHER novels and the game book have been translated by Nyaasu Nekoban and are freely available, so you can read the novel and play the pen and paper game for yourself. But, if you’d like an in-depth overview instead - Thane Gaming has your back! Just search for the “Dark Aspects of MOTHER” series on YouTube and you can experience the juiciest parts of the very-different novels and the game book vicariously.

CAT

Finally, Emma wrote in and shared that just like Jess and I, they and their girlfriend Polly love to share videogames with each other. Emma says, “since she showed me the MOTHER series and played through all of it with me, I have become such a big fan of these strange, poignant and beautiful games. I have been so happy to find and listen to your podcast, and to learn so much more about the background to Itoi's bizarre and wonderful ideas, and I can't wait for you two to get stuck into the big emotional moments of each game. But hey, no crying until the end!” 

Thanks Emma! 

JESS

Thanks Polly.

CAT

And thank you to Disgruntled Seabass, Thedeo, Hilijix, and Matthias Whitney for your wonderful and heartwarming reviews of “MOTHER,” She Wrote on Apple Podcasts and Podchaser.

JESS

Reviewing the show and telling people in your lives about it is a huge help.

CAT

As is supporting us on Patreon - I don’t know for sure which of you are here for “MOTHER,” She Wrote, but I’ve got my suspicions! Thanks so much to everyone, yes, even you - for listening and making this show possible. 

CAT & JESS

We’ll see you next Times!

[Mother’s Day Times outro fanfare]

CAT

Sarah - Welcome to the show! 

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Hello.

CAT:

The first question that we have for you, the most important thing-

JESS:

We need to know: what are your favorite pizza toppings?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<laugh>. Oh, I appreciate this so much. My favorite pizza toppings... I have to tell you, I don't know if this is why, and I don't know how many people really like to go into the psychology of what their favorite pizza toppings are, but in this case, I'm gonna do it. So... My favorite pizza toppings are: cheese with pepperoni. And this is because we grew up super poor and extra toppings cost money. And I didn't actually have a pizza with multiple toppings on it until I was in college. Tim, who is now my partner, would always order these pizzas with like... What!? Pepperoni, and sausage, and mushrooms, and peppers, and onions!? Like how, what, what is this?

JESS:

Yeah.

CAT:

It's perverse. It's decadent.

JESS:

It's lovely.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Exactly! Right?

JESS:

But that's beside the point, <laugh>.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

And it's like, you know, and - I love that. And, you know, since then I've had pizzas of all kinds, but you know...

JESS:

You're a traditionalist.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But like, not in a gross sense, hopefully. <Laugh>

JESS:

There's a reason why cheese and pepperoni is like the default pizza anywhere that you go.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It is, yeah. Have you played the game Pizza Tower?

JESS:

It's on my wishlist on Steam.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Okay, good. And that's probably a whole nother conversation for another day, but I was like, "yeah, you know, the standard pizza." It's cheese and pepperoni and... Maybe that's 'cause it's easy to draw. Maybe that's because it is a classic deliciousness and... yeah. There's so many reasons. But, um, yeah, pepperoni is what I'm gonna vote for and Tim always makes fun of me for it. He's like, "that's so basic." He's like, "don't you want like some adventure on your pizza? Don't you want extra taste and texture? And also probably nutrients?"

CAT:

<Laugh>.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

And you know, my answer to that is: when I order pizza, I'm not ordering pizza to have a taste adventure. I'm ordering it because I need to feel some kind of comfort, or nostalgia, or something like that. And that's what pepperoni pizza tastes like to me.

CAT:

Wow. I love that you took what would be the most stock possible answer-

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<Laughs>

CAT:

-And took us on an emotional journey. And I think that really sets the pace for literally this whole conversation.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Thank you. Thank you. I'm happy to. <Laugh>

CAT:

Sarah, we came together as people because of our careers in podcasting, but we came together as friends-

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<gasps>

CAT:

-Because we both realized that we had the same favorite book.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

That is true. We did.

CAT:

That book is "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeline L'Engel. Which is. For some people, required reading in elementary school. I had to read it in both fifth grade and then when I moved to new school in sixth grade.

JESS:

Oh wow. You got a double dose outta it there.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Wow.

JESS:

And Sarah just held up two copies of the book!

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

And I have three and I can't find... I had the really small one with the centaur and the evil red eyes and everything on the cover.

CAT:

Mm-hmm.

New Speaker:

I don't know if you're familiar with that one.

CAT:

I am.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It was pretty standard for a while.

JESS:

I feel like I read "A Wrinkle in Time" in Grade School, but I honestly can't remember anything about it. So Cat, I'm probably gonna borrow your copy of it at some point and give it a read, but you'll have to forgive me and my ignorance about the story because it's, you know, been like... A long time since I read it.

CAT:

Yeah. "A Wrinkle in Time" came out in 1962. We'll talk a little bit more about it later. That is all to sort of say that it is important. And the reason that we're gonna circle around to it, the reason that it's in this earthbound discussion is because this extremely formative piece of young adult science fiction, whether it is directly referenced by the MOTHER series or indirectly, is a part of the sort of pop culture fabric that allows for a story like MOTHER to exist. It is a foundation upon which many things are based. So whether or not Shigesato Itoi had actually read this book, it still casts enough of a shadow that, by virtue of a lot of pop culture osmosis, it has a place within the ecosystem of how art is made.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

CAT:

And gosh darn it, there are a lot of comparisons between these two stories. But! There's the question of how did Sarah find themselves in this particular adaptation of the story? And it's not just because we're friends and we've worked together a whole bunch.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I mean, that's probably part of it, but...

CAT:

It's part of it.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

But pray, continue <laugh>

CAT:

Sarah, about the time I sat down to start writing what became episode seven of "MOTHER," She Wrote, where Ana's introduced, you wrote a newsletter article called "Being Brave Actually Kind of Sucks". I really enjoyed the discourse of that newsletter, and that led to my first drafts as I was finding Ana's voice. You and I got to talking like - you messaged me out of the blue probably. And I was like, "oh, hey, I was actually just kind of riffing off of something that you'd written," and we got to bantering about how things had gone of late. And then, as we were talking, I realized, "oh wait... Sarah is the child of a... minister? Preacher? I don't recall-

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Pastor.

CAT:

Pastor. Yeah. And is also a voice actor and also loves "A Wrinkle in Time". And there is so much "A Wrinkle in Time" in not just MOTHER, but in hindsight, I've seen - my interpretation of the story of MOTHER. Maybe Sarah's the perfect person to voice Ana?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Thank you.

JESS:

It's just too many coincidences to be an accident,

CAT:

Right. I don't say no to that kind of serendipity.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<laugh> Neither do I.

CAT:

So I would love to talk a little bit about the discussion of "being brave kind of sucks". Obviously, everyone at this point, if they've heard episode seven, has heard how that discourse sort of turned into my separate discourse in "MOTHER," She Wrote where Ana puzzles out, kind of, the idea of bravery as confidence.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

CAT:

"The ability to know who you are in the face of something scary," a belief in yourself that supersedes a threat of pain or obliteration... And that's not explicitly what you were talking about in that newsletter. So Sarah, what's your relationship with bravery?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It's one of those things where, you know, I feel like bravery is something that gets bandied about a lot. It's become a thing that we say to each other like, "oh, that was so brave of you," et cetera. But my own particular relationship with bravery and why I decided to write that particular newsletter, was that I was in a discussion with a friend who has - not only a chronic illness, but it turns out something bordering on terminal. And we were talking about going to these medical appointments; and we were talking about, you know, existing in a world that maybe doesn't see and doesn't understand what you're going through. I was trying to not say anything trite or cliche. And the only thing that I really felt that was true that I could say to this person was, "I really admire your bravery in going through this, and wow, being brave really sucks. It sucks." And that's what got me started thinking about this newsletter. I've never thought of myself as a brave person. I liked the definition that you just gave. In that context, bravery is about identity. Bravery is acknowledging your identity, or owning your identity, coming into yourself, and there are different ways that we can, you know, act out that kind of bravery. One is the association of, not only accepting yourself and knowing yourself, but liking yourself, which is a really sticky and tricky topic to talk about because, you know... I am at times prone to episodes of self-loathing that can last for various periods.... The other thing is, it's always associated with very active terms, "an act of bravery," and I know that that's an easy way to think about it. Like, "oh, you jumped in front of that car to save the puppy that was very brave of you." But bravery does require something. It's not entirely passive, and I don't think it can be passive if it is bravery.

JESS:

Being brave could require a catalyst for you to act. You can either choose to react in a way that is sort of safe, and is what is expected of you, and is following the rules; or having the confidence in yourself to be able to react to it in a way that feels true to you.

CAT:

I mean, bravery is, in a lot of ways, a question of: "what is your response to situations that could be considered fearful."

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

CAT:

So then we have to analyze fear. Sarah, in your article you said, "overcoming fear feels less like overcoming and more like just getting through the worst of something without giving up.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm.

CAT:

"Just surviving something horrible. I feel a lot less like Luke Skywalker than I do. Laurie Strode at the end of Halloween."

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm. Yes.

CAT:

For the purposes of "MOTHER," She Wrote, or analyzing any situation where we're discussing the ways that children are growing up through trauma - like these kids who are, you know, on this big adventure, knowing that there's something out there that only they can do, and feeling so small, and yet somehow also a little bit big in the face of all of it - in a way bravery is an existential status quo for a person. How do you respond to fear? And if you have a sense of self or a sense of some kind of like crystallized vision of who you are and where you're going, it's easier to stand up to that.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes. You know, I think I probably said somewhere in the article that there's this sort of saying that "bravery is feeling the fear and doing it anyway." And the relationship between bravery and fear seems so intertwined, but I think it's also interesting to look at what fear actually does for us. It's, you know, sometimes an overdeveloped sense, but it is generally a sense that we've developed to protect ourselves. Like, I'm afraid of getting eaten by a bear, so I don't poke the bear. I'm afraid of getting hit by a car, so I don't run out into traffic without looking both ways first. And I'm really interested in how we use bravery to respond to / overcome fear and what does that mean for us and for the health of ourselves and our identity. So Ana using her powers... I feel like that ended up being a very positive, and good, and healthy thing for her. But you know, using your bravery to overcome fear... was her fear protecting her from anything that she'll later regret? Or was that fear not rooted in truth to begin with? Are those false fears that have been implanted in us by people who are looking to control us, et cetera?

CAT:

Yeah, in Ana's case, a lot of her baggage comes from the ways that her parents were concerned about her powers and how she internalized that and the different ways that she kind of repressed aspects of herself.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

JESS:

She talks about how her parents would restrict her use of her powers. I mean, she doesn't elaborate on it a whole lot, but she basically says it's like, "having visions and talking to animals is all well and good," but by the end of episode seven, she's really playing with some firepower here.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes.

JESS:

That could do some damage. And so, her personal growth is having the confidence that she's doing the right thing with that, even though she's been told her entire life to repress that. When push comes to shove and she has to use it to save her friends, she is willing to step up and do that.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Do you think if she wouldn't have had- if somebody else's life wasn't at stake, would she have ever used it?

CAT:

That's a great question, and probably not. Because Ana, from what little we get of her from the Encyclopedia, the younger kids at Sunday school call her "little mother" because she is this kind of maternal figure while also still being a child. So, there's a clear spotlight that she exhibits a great degree of control and always has. Control over her powers, however, subconscious. Control over being the perfect daughter to a major figure in the township. That kind of inner tightrope walk, that she might not even realize is doing or is causing her stress, like, that's the sort of thing that she has to release. And if it wasn't for her having that kind of release, she may not have had the wherewithal to solve... And this is what I was hopefully going for with the script: is she might not have actually sat down at that piano and play a duet with a ghost if she hadn't had that moment of overcoming, prior.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

What a resonant experience that is too, as you were speaking of that, I was, you know, thinking of my own childhood and those experiences, and what is it that finally brings us into ourselves? What finally kickstarts our bravery and our becoming one with our identity, wherever that comes from?

JESS:

I think it maybe also is having support from your friends, and having that confidence, having people around you who are telling you that they trust you and that they believe in you.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I think that's so important. So, thinking of my own childhood, going to church, sitting in church when I was little- I was the oldest of four kids and I was always the one who was, like, shepherding them and being the "little mother" to my sisters and my brother. And it really makes you think of how even that can form its own type of trauma. And it was things that I didn't even unpack until later in life, but that kids go through and deal with. And without the support, without a community encouraging you to have that growth, and to confront your trauma and to be yourself - which I didn't really have, you know... I'm almost 40 and I'm only just now starting to deal with some of these issues, which is why the character of Ana related - I related so strongly to her. How old is she? 12?

CAT:

12.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

12. She's 12 and she's having these realizations that, you know, I'm turning 40 and I am just now getting to that place. So she's got... she's got things cut out for her.

CAT:

I like to think that fighting possessed wildlife and aliens will kind of accelerate that.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm. Mm. Fair.

CAT:

I feel like, you know, a lot of life changes comes from personal crisis and you know, being like, "ooh, I have to stop lying to myself now."

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm.

CAT:

"Or I literally cannot go on if I don't confront this internal thing about me" - Because something terrible has happened and only that allows for you to grow.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm. As you've been talking, I've been thinking a lot about the word "truth" and just what that means, especially in that context. And so growing up, you know, your truths are: you are a good child, because it is true that good children do this, and this, and this - and you are a benefit to your family and that means this, and this, and this, and this is true. And there are certain truths within the church, like we believe this, and we believe this, and we believe this. And I see a lot of parallels with Ana and the truths (or the truths that are told to her are truths) about what she's capable of and what her powers actually do, and the effect that they can have on the world. I'm wondering if being brave is really an understanding of what is actually like capital "T" true. And I feel like, depending on how trusting you are and what you're taught, the truth that you're taught: you should do this, you must do this, you are this... A lot of us don't even know or think to question that. And that's why I appreciate the crisis in Ana's story, giving her the impetus to begin to question that - instead of having, you know, having it happen over 40 years of her life, very slowly <laugh>. It's so interesting to think about even the term "mother" in this case. I think that "mother" comes with a very strong sense of responsibility - like above anything else. Because, of course, mothers also are associated with love and nurture and care. But really what we're looking at, when you're asked to keep an eye on your siblings, when you are asked to keep your powers in check - that responsibility is kind of what is being asked of you most. And not wanting to let people down, not wanting to look like a failure... That all gets mixed up in there too, but at the same time, you're dealing with this as a child. Of course, I'm going to say now that I can look back on some of these things... Like there are some things that like we should not expect children to have to do, like mediate parental arguments and take actual, physical ,responsible care of siblings, and just do a whole bunch of things that really ideally there would be an adult in their life who would take care of these things, so that the child can actually be a child. And... That was a lot of my experience and - you know, I've grown into a very responsible person today - and that has been a benefit. I know how to take care of children, even though I don't have any of my own - which... that may be related. So, you know, it's maybe good for growth of character and it's made me more self-reliant. I'm wondering with Ana, what she's going to face down the road, having to have been an adult, you know, for how long she's been doing this... And what does that mean? What does that mean for a child? Is that part of her trauma? Is it the stem of her trauma? I have so many questions. <laugh>

JESS:

Something else, you know, about Ana as well is she does have these psychic abilities that lets her sort of read the minds of other people, what they're up to, where they are, what their experiences are, and you know, things like that.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

JESS:

So that probably gives her a leg up when it comes to being a caretaker, you know. Really interacting with anybody out in the world.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Right. That just may have sealed her fate into that because - when you have that, you have to act on it, you have that knowledge.

JESS:

Yeah.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

But the other thing I think with Ana is did she choose that responsibility - or how much of that responsibility did she choose? And what is the responsibility of putting herself over the choices that other people have made for her?

CAT:

Yeah. We'll just have to see the different ways that she's confronted by these larger existential problems for her as she steps out into this, and as different responsibilities maybe... attempt to adhere themselves to her, or pull on her heartstrings in a way that she is not used to having to say "no" to.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm. MM!

JESS:

Do you think that Ana feels a sense of responsibility towards people who are in need?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes.

New Speaker:

I mean, clearly when she sits down at the piano and has to overcome that, like she is trying to help make a connection with a spiritual entity for no reason that she has to.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Oh, can I talk about this?

JESS:

Yes.

CAT:

Please do! Sarah, you did a Ted talk...

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I did.

CAT:

Called "When you Can't Help Everyone" .

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<laugh>

CAT:

Which I think, like, something in the orbit of that is kind of where this is headed right now.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It absolutely- and that's exactly- oh my gosh: that's exactly what I was thinking. So... I have so many thoughts now about, you know, organized religion and the church and the thing that I wanna share is that, me personally, I think that: if you are in a church, speaking for the church, and taught by the church; you are taught a path of love and kindness and selflessness. Now I know there's a lot of people who call themselves "Christians" who are out there waving around AK-47s, but... For me, a lot of growing up in the church was learning - and Ana probably learned this too - that "others come before yourself". And, you know, we can take a look at that, at what does it mean to be a "servant leader"? What does it mean to dedicate your life to someone or something else? And you know, this is really glorified in like, you know, knighthood and all of that stuff, which we won't go into right now. But-

CAT:

It's a deep well.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yeah, <laugh>, there's also this sense of, you know, now that I'm older and I'm taking a critical look at some of these things, who is expected to serve in the church? You know, ideally it's everyone. Often, at least what I saw growing up, a lot of that fell to people who were assigned female at birth. It seemed like it would be an easy thing for people to take advantage of women or any other person who has quote unquote "a certain place", to keep that person in that certain place. Because there's so many different ways to look at serving others, and helping others, and being kind. You can do it from a place of generosity. You can do it from a place of fear... I had a coworker once who was very religious. I don't know what kind of church she belonged to.... I think it was maybe a little on the fringes of things, but you know, "if I don't do *this* then I *am* going to hell." And so I feel like a lot of what she did was very fear-based. Whereas if you, you know, follow the teachings of the figure of Jesus, it's, "you're doing this out of love, you're doing it out of empathy and kindness, because you understand suffering and you want other people to feel better." That's not what it's all about. But, at the end of the day, if you're serving other people, I want it to be from a place of "I love to help other people," not "I am obligated to help other people," or "I'm terrified of what will happen if I don't help other people." And it's just a really, really thin line that - I don't see it getting dissected really anywhere. I just see corporations, and places of employment, and even sports teams using the term "servant leader" when they want to make somebody feel better about being benched. Or they want to use that person, but only in specific circumstances. Like, I worked in marketing for over a decade and I always wanted to be a manager. I wanted to be a VP. I wanted to, like, grow my career, you know, as you do when you're a career-focused young person, and was always told that like, "no, you're not a good fit for management. Really what we see you doing is leading from behind." You know, being a "servant leader," which meant that I was doing all the work of a leader, but not getting paid for it. There's so much wrapped up in what it means to serve others, and what the reasons are behind why you're doing it. And... I think it's especially interesting when it becomes something so ingrained in your personality. Like I believe it is in Ana... She can't help it. Like, she sees someone in pain, her empathy is so strong that it pierces her heart and she has to act. I'm not gonna say it's a reflexive action or a reflex, or that she's not choosing to do it, but she doesn't even question her choice to do it, if that makes sense.

JESS:

Because she's brave.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Because she's brave, right? Yes. Because she's brave and because she sees someone in need. And what a beautiful gift to be able to respond to people in that way.

CAT:

Yeah.

CAT:

So "A Wrinkle in Time", it's the story of a group of three neurodivergent children, whisked away to other planets, to solve the problem of... A sort of, let's call it a "cloud" of encroaching evil, that is a sort of abstract embodiment of the darkness in the hearts of living beings.

JESS:

Yeah. We know the story of EarthBound, but what about "A Wrinkle in Time"?

CAT:

<laugh> Yeah. That's a very, very simple explanation, but at its heart - yeah - The stories are very similar.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yeah.

JESS:

Wow.

CAT:

I mean, a psychic little boy is one of the main characters and the other kids... They don't have, you know, pyrokenesis, but they have a certain sort of intuition, which is... The way it's described is beautifully rendered in a way that's very before it's time, as some people who are just, like, very neurodivergent, have ADHD, have autism - these are extremely realistic depictions in a time where they are, all of them, rendered outsiders. Some of them are masking and then feel incredible relief when they don't have to anymore.

JESS:

Wow. When was this book published?

CAT:

1962!

JESS:

Wow! Seriously?!

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

1962.

CAT:

Seriously. It spent several years not getting published actually, because it was too different, because it had a female protagonist, which had basically never happened in young reader science-fantasy literature. And also the topics it discusses, even mathematically speaking, are so heavy it's kind of a surprise that it was ever conceived of as a kid's book, but it is important that young people read this book. The concept of a tesseract - that is the titular "wrinkle in time", folding two points in time together - a very literal dimensional slip, I might add!

JESS:

Topical!

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Heeey!

CAT:

That that is at the heart of this book, and they go to great lengths to explain what was at the time a highly theoretical mathematical problem.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm.

CAT:

At this point in time, these kinds of discussions were not very existent in even adult science fiction, and this book is directly responsible for these kinds of science fiction topics finding their way into larger pop culture.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm.

CAT:

When we look at the books that we know for a fact have been a basis for the MOTHER series, we're looking at books like "The Neverending Story", which is first published in 1979. We're looking at Peter Straub and Stephen King's "The Talisman", which was published in the mid-eighties. This story, "A Wrinkle in Time", is what all of these other things are built on. Like I said before, whether Shigesato Itoi, or even these other authors interfaced with it, they were still absorbing it because it was a huge hit immediately.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

So I know a lot about the book, and I love the book, and that's why I know a lot about the book. What I don't know is anything surrounding the release of book. So, even hearing that this was shelved for a while is like... That blows my mind entirely. So, was the book pretty much like a runaway success when it was first published? And how did the publishers react to this thing that they thought nobody wanted really exploding?

CAT:

I'm gonna talk from what little I know on the history of it. Madeline L'Engel got 20-plus rejections and eventually was able to get it published by, kind of like, backdooring through a friend of a friend that didn't usually publish YA. But, when it came out the very next year, it got a Newberry award.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm! And it deserves it.

CAT:

The inciting incident of "A Wrinkle in Time" is: Meg and Charles Wallace's father disappears. And that's been the case for... Over a year. I forget how long it is specifically. But everyone assumes that he's dead, but the government won't say what the hell happened, and then one day someone presumed to be a homeless person shows up and starts talking about a tesseract.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

CAT:

The story also has a certain degree of overlap in terms of the way that it looks at the world. Madeline L'Engle has an incredible sense of scale, in terms of the philosophy of how the universe is looked at. This is especially shown in the follow-up book," A Wind in the Door".

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes.

CAT:

One could call it a kind of theosophical mindset. Theosophy being... It's a longer discussion - we talk much more about it in my other show, The Call of Cthulhu Mystery Program where it's historically relevant, but - it's a kind of combination of philosophy and theology that assumes that all religions are, at least in some part, true. Or that there's some kind of, like, divine undercurrent to all of them. The reason I was able to read this book in school in general was, I attended Christian schools when I was younger, and there are Christian themes in this, so forward-thinking teachers could put this really radical science fiction book in their criteria because people were like, "oh, I see that there's Christian themes in this, well this must be okay".

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mmm.

CAT:

Whereas there's actually a lot of Christians who think that this book is as evil as anything else, they put on their banned book lists. So it walks in this very strange place of having a lot of love-forward Christian philosophy in it at the same time as also like naming Buddhism in different parts-

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It's just talking with such love and reverence about the world in a way that makes so many things seem more possible.

JESS:

Has "A Wrinkle in Time" inspired you or affected - has it had an impact on your own writing?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Extremely, yes. I think that a lot of people, when talking about their favorite book, or something that has been a lifelong inspiration for them will talk about that book as though it is, like, a friend, or an extension even of themselves or their personality, or maybe even a source for where part of their personality came from. And I'm definitely, definitely in that camp thinking about Meg in her attic room... So Meg is the main character. Again, female neurodivergence. And... I think I read this at a time, I wanna say I read it in the early nineties, and I didn't know what neurodivergence was. I didn't know anything about gender politics. All I knew is that there was - finally a character who like felt real to me, and did things that I would do, and wanted things that I would want, and it was very liberating in a way that gave me permission to write about myself not as a traditional neurotypical, stereotypical female-type person, but really gave me the freedom or the permission, whatever you wanna call it, to create a character who actually felt real. And this was, you know, during this time I was reading Nancy Drew... Who is fantastic, you know, she can make a bomb out of a high heel shoe and like solve things with lipstick... But that was still very neurotypical and very traditional female stereotype. And this just really centered Meg first and foremost as a Person with a capital "P". And that was really meaningful to me.

CAT:

Yeah. Going back and reading these books intermittently as I have throughout the years, every time I pick it up, there'll usually be a gulf of some significant time inbetween them.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm.

CAT:

And then I'll be like, "whoa, that's in there!?"

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm!

CAT:

"I'm only just now thinking about what that means!"

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm.

CAT:

Like the most recent time that I read it, I was marveling at how like the different ways that I've unpacked myself as a neurodivergent person... the naturalistic way that they are depicted is so true, so honest and I think - you know, the book influenced me, but also in some ways I think the connection that I had with the book is... That it felt like a friend from the start. It's the same way that queer people or neurodivergent people end up inadvertently clustering together-

New Speaker:

Mm! Mm-hmm.

New Speaker:

In society and they're like, "oh wow! Surprise, we're all gay! Weird!" And this book has the same relationship, I feel.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm-hmm. And that made it feel safe to me. That made it feel like I was understood saying like, "hey, these outcasts and weirdos are making their own-" again, a new term at the time, "found family." I didn't even hear that term until, I don't know, I was in my twenties or thirties, but that's exactly what they're doing.

CAT:

And now, since we're talking about the influence of this - Sarah, the work you're best known for is an all-ages science fiction: Girl in Space.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Hmm.

CAT:

We've talked about a lot of themes that materialized over the course of you writing Girl in Space, like within that body of work, how has "A Wrinkle in Time" informed Girl in Space and how is Girl in Space reflective of your views on young people in existential situations, and so forth? The stuff we've been talking about here.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

So, for those of you who haven't heard it, Girl in Space is the story of a girl... In space. A Person living aboard an abandoned space station that's slowly falling apart. And the sort of premise of the whole show is this character, her name is X, you find out eventually. X is alone and suddenly a light starts coming toward her. And really nobody really knows she's out here, nobody's supposed to know she's out here, so who is this coming toward her and why? And I mean, it's interesting, like I did not actually think about its relationship... Like wow- like... This is- it's kind of a retelling of "A Wrinkle in Time", when you really look at it. But, um, I think what I took away from "A Wrinkle in Time" and either consciously or unconsciously planted into Girl in Space was: having a safe space. Meg's attic, it's like always seemed so cozy to me. And she had her own space. And for me, I had to share a room with my two sisters, and then I had roommates through college, and then I didn't actually ever have my own space until I was in my twenties. And I didn't know what that was, and I just coveted it. I just wanted it so much. I even asked my parents like, "hey, could I, like, set up a bedroom in the attic?" And they were like, "no."

CAT:

<Laugh>. Aw.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

So...no.

CAT:

But the book! The book!

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I know, but they didn't, you know, they didn't get it. They didn't understand it. But, X living in The Glass House, it's very much me recreating that cozy space where you understand things, and are understood, and where you can express yourself, and care about the things that you care about, and like literally - in this case, literally - no one is around to judge you for it. I think really Meg's activity, and maybe to an extent too X's activity and Girl in Space, and by "activity" I mean the things that they choose to do in being brave... Is to... Initially, just like at the end of Halloween: survive this intrusion and survive this existential threat. And then what they have to do to be brave is get to know themselves and develop themselves to the point where they're able to enter the conversation and start to make actual, functional choices.

CAT:

So Sarah, after being cast as Ana, you started playing EarthBound.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I did! I was like, "I should probably figure out what this is about!"

CAT:

I was curious what that experience has been like for you. 'Cause I've seen that you're playing it. We exchanged a couple messages here and there, but I don't actually know how you're finding it, or what it's like. I know that this game in particular can be like... Kind of a pain. So what do you think?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yeah. I have lots of thoughts here. First of all, I'd never even heard of this game until you invited me to act in the show. And so that was a completely new experience. I had never played a video game like Pokemon or anything that I feel like this is maybe stylistically inspiring. I have played Undertale, which is maybe like in my mind, related in a way

CAT:

Undertale is what's now called a "MOTHER-like".

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Really! It's its own genre?!

CAT:

Yeah. A very newly-coined term to encapsulate a phenomenon... That started before Undertale, but has an increasing footprint in the (especially) indie games industry. Mm-hmm.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Mm. Boy, do I- Hmm, more of that please!

CAT:

Yeah. Well-

JESS:

There's a sale on Steam, right now, for MOTHER-like games.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Is there really?

JESS:

There is.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Wow. When we get off this call...

JESS:

<Laugh>.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I do wanna say, when I first started playing the game, I played the wrong game.

JESS:

<laugh>.

CAT:

You played EarthBound.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes. And I was like, "I found it! Hooray!" And I started playing it and I was like, "man, this is nothing like the audio drama at al!"

JESS:

<Laugh>

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

It finally occurred to me after a while, and Cat I don't remember. I wanna say you were the one who was like, "you're playing the wrong game." Was it you who alerted me to this?

CAT:

No. 'cause I knew you were playing the wrong game-

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

<Laugh>.

CAT:

-but I thought you were playing the wrong game on purpose. I was like, "oh, cool, Sarah reached for EarthBound. That makes sense. That's a more fun game as games go." And you, you got at least to Twoson.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

I did. I got to Twoson and then I was like, "oh, I'm playing the wrong game." And then I started the other one, which actually has Ana in it.

CAT:

<Laugh>.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

And I was like, "oh, okay. This is what I should have probably started at." It was so unusual in its storytelling, because, when you start the earlier game, your lamp gets possessed-

CAT:

Mm-hmm.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

-And and all that stuff. And then when you start the second game, it's this like weird non-linear thing. It's just- it goes against what you're taught storytelling-wise in that: something happens, you go outside to investigate, you can't investigate, and you go home and sleep. And it's like, what is this storytelling? And like, that was blowing my mind. I was like, "this cannot be possible." So then you get up the next day and you're investigating this crash site and... It was just so unlike anything else I have ever played before. And I've played maybe a reasonable number of video games, you know, including Undertale. And this still retained a freshness? It was just interesting, like that first game is so ugly. Like everything is like flesh colored and the kids look like little Charlie Brown Peanuts characters

CAT:

Legally distinct from Charlie Brown.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes, similar but legally distinct from Charlie Brown, Snoopy, Peanuts characters.

New Speaker:

Just enough. Just different enough.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Yes. I did enjoy the design and, kind of, the smoothness of the second game, but both offered such bizarre and challenging experiences that I think that especially the bizarreness was really ahead of its time. I feel like you get a lot of like LOL random stuff in today's media. Like everything is self-aware, and breaking a fourth wall, and all of that stuff. But I really feel like EarthBound did it first? Like, if that title was launched today, it would be successful, it would be fresh, it would be new. And it's just fascinating to me the amount of creativity that went into that to make it so fundamentally different and unique. And I kept taking screenshots and like screeching with delight. So that's how you know that I like a game. So...

CAT:

<laugh> Next up, you're gonna hear the first episode of Girl in Space, but before we say goodbye to us and say hello to X... Sarah, where can people find you and what would you like them to know as we slip through this particular tesseract?

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

You can find me out on the Internet! I think first and foremost at my website, which sort of serves as a portal to everything that I'm working on. You can find that at sarahwerner.com where you can listen to my podcasts and, more importantly, sign up for my newsletter and like, that's, kind of, how you can hear what I'm working on and read things about how bravery sucks. So yes, please, please do that.

JESS:

<laugh>

CAT:

<Laugh> Well then, we'll have links to where you can go to all those places and do all those things on this episode's page. Sarah, thank you so much for being here on this first dimensional slip.

JESS:

Thank you.

SARAH RHEA WERNER:

Thank you for having me. It is such an honor to be here with you talking about so many of the things that I love and that have formed me as a person. So I'm just very excited to be here. I'm also excited for what's coming up next, which is, hey, if you like EarthBound, if you like "A Wrinkle in Time," chances are you might like Girl in Space. It deals with a lot of what we've been talking about theme-wise and I think introduces you to some fun and compelling characters. So I hope you enjoy the ride.

[Synthy musical transition]

[Girl in Space, Season 1, Episode 1: “Cheese is Delicious Science” - Full transcripts available on the Girl in Space website]

[upbeat music plays]

CAT

For the full credits for Girl in Space, more episodes, and links to their Patreon, head to girlinspacepodcast.com!

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is made possible thanks to the generous support of our Patreon Producers:

Amber Devereux, Becky Scott Fairley, Bob Hogan, C B, Joe “Tank” Ricciardelli, Josh King, McDibble Deluxe, MjolnirMK86, Patrick Webster, Sean Hutchinson, Sean T. Redd…

And our Super-Deluxe Executive Patreon Producers:

BigBadShadowMan, Marcus Larsson, and Jaimeson LaLone

JESS

You can join the team at Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia! And if you think “MOTHER,” She Wrote is simply smashing, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser  - and be sure to subscribe via your favorite podcast player.

CAT

This series is recorded and produced in Orlando, Florida and Louisville, Kentucky on lands stolen from their Indigenous people: the Timucua and Seminole, and Shawnee, Cherokee, Osage, Seneca-Iroquois, Miami, Hopewell and Adena.

JESS

Acknowledgement of the first peoples of these lands, and the lasting repercussions of colonization is just the beginning of the restorative work that is necessary. Through awareness, we can prompt allyship, action, and ultimately decolonization. 

CAT

For links to aid Indigenous efforts and to learn more about the first nations of the land where you live: visit omniverse.media/landback

JESS

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is written, produced, and performed by me: Jessica Mudd.

CAT

And me: Cat Blackard. Our original score is composed and performed by Jess. 

JESS

Special thanks to Kenisu for his invaluable work translating the MOTHER Encyclopedia. Find a link to his translation, other media we’ve referenced, and full episode transcripts at mothershewrote.earth

CAT

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is not affiliated with Nintendo, Shigesato Itoi, or any rights holders of the MOTHER and EarthBound intellectual properties. Please play the games' official Nintendo releases.

[Omniverse Audio Brand]