CREDITS

Written, Produced, & Performed by:

Cat Blackard & Jessica Mudd

​

Original Score & Sound Design:

Jessica Mudd

​

Album Art: Cat Blackard

Sprites: Benichi

Special Thanks: kenisu

TRANSCRIPT

[Omniverse Audio Brand]

[90s phone ring and pick up - super abbreviated, like: bleep, clack]

CAT

Hey, this is Cat!

JESS

And Jess

CAT

You know, “MOTHER,” She Wrote is free to listen to, but it’s not free to make.

​

JESS

So please consider supporting our work on Patreon.

CAT

You’ll get early, ad-free episodes of this show and all the storytelling podcasts we create. 

JESS

Head to Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia to chip in and join our community of world-saving wunderkind.

CAT & JESS

Love youuuu.

​

[phone disconnect sound]

[Dimensional Slip theme begins]

DIMENSIONAL SLIP HOST

You cast your onyx hook into the ocean of consciousness and slide beyond… into another dimension. A dimension of sound, a dimension of dreams, a dimension of love. You’re crossing over into a realm of insightful interviews, expanding the themes and discussions of the MOTHER series. You’ve just been transported… through a dimensional slip.

[Dimensional Slip theme fades out]

JESS

Welcome to Dimensional Slip, intermittent interludes in “MOTHER,” She Wrote’s journey - where we speak with guests from a multitude of backgrounds and delve deeper into the themes, media, and fandom that make up the tapestry of the EarthBound experience. 

I’m your calculating composer and cool curator of contemporary concertos, Jessica Mudd. And with me is my captivating co-host and consort…

CAT

Cat! Cat Blackard - hi, howya doin’? You know, Jess, I’m guessing it wasn’t your intention to directly cast a spotlight on your musical prowess, but let’s do that.

JESS

Haha okay…

CAT

Yup, we’re not editing this bit. Dear listeners, sweet noodlenoggins - did you know that Jess wrote ALL the music on this show? We’re not lifting any music from MOTHER - that would be a copyright violation! All the music throughout “MOTHER,” She Wrote, except for that one track by Grand Buffet, is original music that Jess has written and performed - and I’m so freaking impressed by her. She’s brilliant, she’s constantly surprising me, and I love her very much so… now… you know that Jess is… very talented. End PSA.

JESS

I - Uh…Thanks?

CAT

Yup. That’s how it is! But this isn’t even a musically-minded episode! No, no no. In this episode we’re not just giving the 4th Dimension a slip, we’re breaking the 4th Wall - discussing the unique way that the games in the MOTHER series speak directly to the players of the games - And we’re exploring the investigative origins of the modern MOTHER fandom… with Mother Forever’s Kody Nokolo!

JESS

You’re, like, super enthusiastic in this delivery.

CAT

I’m hopped up on goofballs!

JESS

<laugh> You’ve heard us mention Mother Forever before as an epicenter of the EarthBound fan community. They’re responsible for the annual Mother Direct events and are an incredible resource for learning more about the series and its creator, Shigesato Itoi. Kody is one of the founders of Mother Forever, and is a game designer whose work is inspired by the MOTHER series as well as the passion embodied in the creative community surrounding it. 

CAT

Speaking of “community”! Before we get cozy with Kody, let’s catch up with the latest happenings in The Mother’s Day Times!

[The Mother’s Day Times theme starts]

CAT

My darlings, my dears, what a time! What a time!

JESS

Great times!

CAT

Very great times! We took a bit of a release break, hopped the pond to Foggyland, we rested, we wrote, we researched, we recorded, and here’s what you need to know!

JESS

First of all, we’re picking back up our adventure through EarthBound Beginnings this month - so get your sunblock ready because In two weeks we’re heading into the desert! Episode 8 debuts October 23rd. 

CAT

Then, in November, we’ll hit you with another Dimensional Slip / EarthBound Beginnings combo, coming every-other-week, every other Mother Monday.

JESS

The final episodes of our journey through EarthBound Beginnings will debut early next year and in the meantime there’ll be more Dimensional Slips to come. 

CAT

But enough about the near future, what about the recent past?

JESS

London Podcast Fest was a blast! It was so cool to meet the UK audio drama community. We made some awesome new friends and saw some amazing live shows. Cat even got in on the action.

CAT

It’s true! I made a guest appearance in We Fix Space Junk’s live show, and you’ll be able to hear it when it hits the podwaves in a couple months as a part of their holiday special.

JESS

And once you got to Glasgow there was also a MOTHER meet up…

CAT

Yes! Shout out to our Scottish noodlenoggins Emma, Polly, and Amber. We had a lovely brunch soiree; it was so awesome hanging out with them! And that miiiiight not be the last “MOTHER,” She Wrote meet-up this year… If you’re in or around Durham, North Carolina November 4th and 5th - come on out to my favorite comic convention, North Carolina Comicon! Drop us a line at dearmothershewrote@gmail.com, let us know if you can make it, and we’ll make some magic happen. 

JESS

Which brings us to some lovely letters we received over the break - Rosy wrote in and said:

“I discovered your podcast right after beating EarthBound Beginnings for the first time, so the timing feels perfect. You captured the weird sci-fi vibe of this game perfectly. I can't wait to eventually hear your thoughts on MOTHER 3. It's my favorite in the trilogy, and possibly my favorite game of all time! Aside from everything else I love about it, I really like the game's portrayal of queer people.” Well! Since I haven’t played MOTHER 3 yet - I’m also excited to hear my thoughts on it! Thanks Rosy! 

CAT

Minny, not Mimmie, wrote in and said: “I’ve personally had a hard time with EarthBound Beginnings, though I love the series to death. I knew there was a good bit of extended media around it, but as someone with limited vision and resources in general, interacting with that media can be a little rough at times. So aside from generally enjoying the deep dive into all the lore and story and stuff, I really appreciate your work from an accessibility perspective. It’s helped me gain a greater appreciation for a game I’ve had so much trouble connecting with.” 

This is so absolutely awesome and affirming, Minny. Thank you so much for writing in! When we created this premise we’d assumed that “MOTHER,” She Wrote might be a help for accessibility, but we didn’t know for certain. We’re so glad we’re able to share this game with you, Minny. And for anybody that is hard of hearing, we also have full transcripts available at mothershewrote.earth (You’re reading it right now! Hello!)

Now, I should mention: Minny is a streamer, and I’m really grateful to them for offering their perspective as a legally blind gamer. You can find them on Twitch as “Minnevolved” - with two Ns.  

JESSMo wrote in and shared that they’ve been drawing some wonderful MOTHER art while listening to the show. They told us to “keep up the smashing work.” Well, same to you, Mo! We’ll link to where you can see their art on this episode’s page at mothershewrote.earth.

CATWe want to give a very warm shout out to Dallas who wrote us a wonderful letter. And a shout out to YOU for listening. Remember, if you’ve got any MOTHER memories or musings, we’d love to hear them and possibly add them to this tapestry showcasing what makes these games’ stories and experiences so meaningful. Write in at dearmothershewrote@gmail.com.

JESS

We’d also like to say “thanks” to all those who’ve rated and reviewed us on Apple Podcasts and Podchaser, and followed us or left a comment on Spotify. It really means a lot and helps people discover this podcast!

Speaking of podcasts about EarthBound… we wanted to let you know about a special event that just wrapped as a part of the podcast series: A Gamer Looks at 40!

CAT 

A Gamer Looks at 40 explores video game history and the lasting impact of certain titles and EarthBound - that is MOTHER 2 - was the subject of a special presentation.

JESS

And you were interviewed for it!

CAT

Yes. Yes I was. As well as figures such as Mustin of the legendary VGM band, The One-Ups, Celeste of Another Zelda Podcast, Kody Nokolo from Mother Forever-

JESS

Well, well, well!

CAT

And many other folks sharing their EarthBound opinions and stories. It was actually originally supposed to be one episode, but Bill, the host, was so floored by the outpouring of interest, insight, and love for this game that it turned into a 5 or maybe 6 part special.

JESS

Heads up for anyone who’s following along with us on “MOTHER,” She Wrote though - these A Gamer Looks at 40 episodes are focused on MOTHER 2, but they occasionally contain spoilers for every game in the MOTHER Trilogy. So keep that in mind while you’re listening along.  

CAT

And finally - a BIG announcement! Fangamer’s EarthBound, USA film - the incredible, genre-bending documentary covering the history of the MOTHER fandom that we’ve mentioned many, many times, is making its public debut THIS MONTH! The premiere will be on October 16th in Tucson, AZ as a part of Loft Cinema’s Loft Film Festival. Tickets are on sale now and include a post-film Q&A with director Jazzy Benson. 

JESS

For those of us not able to make the pilgrimage to the Southwest, the film’s streaming debut is November 27th. You can get more info at earthboundusa.com. AND stay tuned to “MOTHER,” She Wrote for an interview with Jazzy in a forthcoming Dimensional Slip. 

CAT

That’s all the news for now!

CAT AND JESS

We’ll see you next Times!

[Mother’s Day Times outro fanfare]

CAT

Now, before our main discussion with Kody kicks off, we should revisit the EarthBound and MOTHER timeline that we discussed in Episode Zero - just to keep it fresh in everyone’s minds. MOTHER, the first game in the trilogy, was released in Japan in 1989 on the Famicom.

JESS

The Famicom is essentially what we know as Nintendo Entertainment System, or NES, in the States. Though… it can be pretty different from the NES in some very strange ways…

CAT

Is that… foreshadowing to some aspect of our forthcoming discussion?

JESS

Mmm… It might be!

CAT

Well alright! So, MOTHER comes out in Japan. Nintendo of America localizes the game as “Earth Bound”, but they don’t release it! Their English translation doesn’t see an official release until 2015, when it’s renamed EarthBound Beginnings.

JESS

Meanwhile, MOTHER 2 is released in 1994 on the Super Famicom. It’s localized by Nintendo of America and this time it actually comes out - as EarthBound in 1995 on the Super Nintendo. It’s a flop… and fades into obscurity except for a few die-hard fans, on whom it leaves a lasting impression. That’s you!

CAT

It me! And I’m not the only one. In 1997, the fan site Earthbound.net launches and in 1999 it evolves into Starmen.net, becoming the epicenter of a growing fanbase. 

JESS

Something that also happens in 1999 is the first Super Smash Bros. comes out and features Ness, from EarthBound, as a playable character - Leaving everyone who didn’t play EarthBound asking, “who the heck is that?” 

CAT

And if they ask the Internet that question in 1999, where do they get directed to?

JESS

Uhhh… Starmen.net?

CAT

Starmen.net. Meanwhile - there’s another MOTHER game in the works! MOTHER 3 was announced in 1996 for the Nintendo 64, and for years gaming magazines showed previews of it in America as “EarthBound64”.

JESS

In 2000, after years of delays, MOTHER 3 was canceled, however it returned in 2006 - not as a polygonal 3D Nintendo 64 game, but as a 2D GameBoy Advance game. 

CAT

At this point, in the decade since EarthBound debuted, the English-speaking fandom had grown in size, became very vocal, and yet… Nintendo of America made no moves to localize MOTHER 3.

JESS

After all that time, and all the drama, the fandom freaked out. The incredible chaos that ensued is documented and brought to life in the forthcoming film, which, we keep name dropping: EarthBound, USA - which, again, releases November 27th, and you can watch the trailer and get more info at earthboundusa.com

CAT

Finally, in 2008, Starmen.net released a fan translation for MOTHER 3. It’s the work of one of the site’s co-founders, Clyde Mandelin, aka "Tomato" - a professional translator for games and anime. 

JESS

In present day, though not officially, all of the MOTHER trilogy has been available to the English-speaking world for fifteen years. In that time, and with each new installment of Super Smash Bros.series -

CAT

We’re up to five now.

JESS

-The MOTHER fandom has grown exponentially. 

CAT

Since 1996, I’ve seen this series grow from a tiny cult following to a bonafide cult phenomena that people of all ages are discovering for the first time, all the time. This series is a continual inspiration for new art in all mediums - which brings us to Mother Forever and Mother Direct.

When we were starting this podcast, I hadn’t been tapped into the fandom since 2015 and 2016 when Fangamer, the company that emerged from Starmen.net, put on two incredible, immersive EarthBound conventions called Camp Fangamer. After those massive events, it had been a few years since I’d been in the know about what was going on in the MOTHER fan community.

So I asked my old pals from Starmen and Fangamer what was up and they were like, "well, you should really look at what Mother Forever is doing right now - that seems to be where everybody's at; where all the discourse is these days." 

JESS

Starmen.net is still alive, but it’s gone from a bustling city to a sleepy little Podunk.

CAT

Yeah, and I was really surprised to see that a secondary centralized community, just as vibrant, had popped up to take the mantle. Mother Forever is an incredible resource, their Discord community is lively, and the annual Mother Direct events unite fans of these games and the creativity that they inspire in a way that is truly unique. 

JESS

In our discussion with Kody, we’ll get the story of how all this happened. We’ll hear how they discovered MOTHER and became a leading face in this series’ fandom. 

CAT

We’ll also explore a little bit of the surprising role that the canceled game EarthBound64 has played in all this. It’s got a lot of similarities to MOTHER 3, but it’s also very different. In a series of games that have at times been lost and rediscovered, the mystery of EarthBound64 - this game that almost was - is still a topic of discussion, decades later, even among young fans. 

JESS

What’s more, Kody discusses their forthcoming fourth-wall smashing game, Gnomonic, and the generation of MOTHER-like media that’s emerged since the MOTHER trilogy ended. So, without further preamble… let’s do the Dimensional Slip!

CAT:

Hi Kody! Welcome to "MOTHER," She Wrote!

KODY:

Tonda gossa! It's awesome to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

CAT:

We're so pleased to have you. Before we get into things, we have an important question to ask.

JESS:

What is your favorite pizza, or what are your favorite pizza toppings?

KODY:

It's kind of an unconventional one. I really like chunks of garlic on my pizza. Yeah.

CAT:

Oh wow.

JESS:

Mmm!

KODY:

Yeah, I love it.

New Speaker:

Like, Lier X. Agerate!

KODY:

Yeah, exactly.

JESS:

That's not- I mean, if that's unconventional, then I guess I, I guess I'm unconventional too.

CAT:

<laugh> A bold choice! Now - let's sink our teeth into this real quick. Are we talking, like, the garlic was raw and then the pizza went in and got baked in that way? Or has the garlic had any like pre-prep before it goes onto the pizza? How are we doing this?

KODY:

So like, sliced up on the top. You can prepare it or not prepare it any kind of way. I just, I love it any way, really. All kinds of garlic. I don't really have a way that I personally do it, but whenever any place has that, that's my favorite.

CAT:

Mm. Awesome. That's fantastic.

JESS:

<laugh> sSpeaking my language. <laugh>

CAT:

<laugh> So Kody, let's talk about your EarthBound origins.

JESS:

You first got into the MOTHER series when you played Smash Brothers, and then you have evolved into running what is the center of the MOTHER fandom. So how do you go from that point A to where you are today?

KODY:

Well, uh, it was a long process to say the least. So, when I started getting into the MOTHER games, I started with Smash Bros Brawl, and at that point I didn't know anything about any kind of community for the game, anything like that. But one of my friends who was, um, more internet savvy than I was at the time, I was only in elementary school - so I was, I wasn't really involved with much of the stuff on the internet. So, when my one friend was, um, showing me all of these ways to play these games too, EarthBound being one of them, on an emulator, and I was like, "what? You can play those kinds of games on your computer like that?" And <laugh>, he also showed me, um, Starmen.net. And, um, eventually I started going on there frequently as kind of a lurker. I never made an account for a while, but I was just kind of watching from a distance of everything that happened there and a lot of the people who were regulars there too. And I was, um, really interested in the MOTHER 3 fan translation, which also came out around the same time that I found Starmen.net. So I, um, tried to get EarthBound to work on an emulator first, and... I had much better luck with MOTHER 3 and getting the fan translation to work. So I played that as my first MOTHER game. It just really made me recognize how deep of a passion the community has, just from playing that - because that was written in English by fans that wasn't by Nintendo themselves. And that really made me recognize too, how much work goes into translating those games. Also, that had a ripple effect into what I do now, because I translate things from Japanese, and I've done that for other websites too in the past. It's kind of affected every part of my life, just by playing that one fan translation of a game somehow. <laugh>. It's wild.

CAT:

That's a pretty tremendous, like, creative birth in reverse.

JESS:

Seriously.

CAT:

I find that deeply fascinating and and delightful and well, I mean, it certainly just goes hand in hand with <laugh>, the kind of general never-what-you'd-expect, quirky undercurrent of literally everything to do with these games. <laugh>

KODY:

Right. Yeah. Oh, it's, it's really affected everything I do.

JESS:

Did it kind of feel like you had used one of the teleport psionic abilities-

KODY:

<laugh>

JESS:

-And it's like you just started running and like you couldn't stop -

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

-And all of a sudden you're like, end up in this completely different place.

KODY:

That's really what happened. Yeah, because once I got involved at that point, I got involved with Camp Fangamer when they started doing those. I went to those and got more involved with the community at that point and kept going... And going <laugh>.

CAT:

Well, golly!

KODY:

Yeah, Camp Fangamer was really where I started meeting a lot of other people from the community too. Like, I remember in 2015, one of my main goals was to meet Tomato because he wrote the fan translation, and thankfully I did get to meet him there, <laugh>. That was one person I really wanted to meet. And ever since, like, I got involved with the community initially, and started going to those events, it really made me realize how much passion people put into making these things for other fans too.

CAT:

Wow. Yeah. Kody, wow. <laugh> That is so incredible. I mean, I knew there were, obviously there were younger people at Camp Fangamer, but... You being one of those people to like go in... As off the deep end as humanly possible-

KODY:

<laugh>

CAT:

-Into the world of MOTHER, that's... It all makes sense. It all adds up.

KODY:

<laugh> Yeah, I was pretty into it. <laugh>, to say the least.

CAT:

Yeah. Meeting Clyde at Camp Fangamer '15 and like having dinner with him and just realizing like: this is the guy. This is the guy that I've seen the posts of since I was in high school.

KODY:

Right. Yeah.

CAT:

And now I'm here as an adult and a journalist and I've, you know, read his work, and participated in art that he's made, and getting to talk with him... I never had such a distinct, surreal experience from the internet>.

KODY:

Yeah.

CAT:

-As with the MOTHER community in general.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

Because for me it's like if I'm interviewing say, like, a musician that I've had an emotional connection with all my life, like that's a big thing!

KODY:

Yeah.

CAT:

But it's not quite the same as the day-to-day blog checking

KODY:

Yeah. Right!

CAT:

<laugh> Throughout high school.

KODY:

Yeah. That sounds like a huge feat. It really puts into perspective how much fans can affect other fans in this community too. It's so wild.

CAT:

Yeah. And it was really beautiful the way that everybody could just... Vibe together. Like, we already had kind of passed an initiation of sorts.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

We already knew the material.

KODY:

Yeah.

CAT:

And so conversation just flowed.

KODY:

Exactly. Yeah. We were all there for one thing.

JESS:

So Kody, I know you do a lot of translation work for various things.

KODY:

Yes!

JESS:

Tell us a little bit about some of the translation work that you do.

KODY:

So, before I started working on Mother Forever, I worked on Source Gaming, which, um, translated a lot of the articles from Masahiro Sakurai when he was writing them in column form in Famitsu. Every two weeks a new column would come out and we'd have to rush to translate it and uh, make sure the information was accurate and um, get it out there for people to read. And that kind of practice really made me realize how this is such a big need for people in the gaming community who are trying to get information from Japanese sources. A lot of the time they'll go straight to a machine translator and sometimes those machine translations are not the most reliable <laugh>.

JESS:

Well, that's a topic that comes up a lot on "MOTHER," She Wrote is how the translation of the game relates to the original intent of what was being written, uh, in the original Japanese.

CAT:

Well, yeah. Especially struggling through the translation of MOTHER-

JESS:

Right.

CAT:

-To EarthBound Beginnings.

JESS:

So I assume you've played the original Japanese version of the game?

KODY:

Actually, I have not played the original Japanese yet for MOTHER 1. Yeah. I've only played the localized version so far, but...

JESS:

I'm really curious to hear somebody-

CAT:

Yeah. Deeply-

JESS:

Who has played both versions and get their opinion on the differences that are present in the various language versions. I mean, there's some things that we know about that were translated differently, thanks to the encyclopedia or just-

CAT:

And also, Clyde Mandolin's -

JESS:

Yes, Tomato's-

CAT:

-Revision.

JESS:

But it's really... We can really only guess at the end of the day what someone who is fluent in Japanese and and understands the culture is getting from the things that are said in these games. And it's something I'm really curious about and I have a feeling it's probably something I'm gonna be learning about for a long time.

KODY:

Yeah. It's a difficult exercise to do because the game has so many different things to find in it that you'd have to play them like side-to-side and do a lot of the same things you do in both playthroughs to really compare a lot of the experiences, I think. But I really should do that at some point. Now you've put the idea in my head <laugh>

JESS:

<laugh>. This sounds like a great experiment.

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

Get both games running side by side, have one controller input that's feeding into both...

CAT and KODY:

Wow.

KODY:

Ooh, that's actually a fun idea. I didn't think of that.

CAT:

Oh wow.

JESS:

Record it, you know, and then just, you know, do some commentary or do an examination of it.

CAT:

And you will command Twitch for a day or more.

KODY and JESS:

<laugh>.

CAT:

Incredible. Yeah. That's, wow. Good job, job galaxy-braining that one, Jess! <Laugh>.

KODY:

<laugh>

JESS:

I do my best.

CAT:

Something I would love to unpack with you is the history of the term "MOTHERlike" to describe games that have a kind of EarthBound-esque quality.

KODY:

Yeah. Right.

CAT:

That a term that I did not hear until frequenting the Mother Forever community.

KODY:

Yes.

New Speaker:

Did you or someone from the immediate community come up with it?

KODY:

It's a term that is kind of hard to explain. So, at the beginning, it was a term that was used on the internet very sparsely to compare games to EarthBound. I know it's been used before I started using it with Mother Forever. But when I started doing the Mother Directs and thinking more about how we can compare games to the MOTHER series, I was trying to find a term that fit that. So, "MOTHERlike" was the thing that I started using. And what it really means though, is kind of hard to explain because the MOTHER series means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So it's difficult to even place a game into that category, but there are so many different games that can fit in it because of that too.

CAT:

Yeah. You have a page that's in development currently on the website that sort of chronicles the history and existence of MOTHER-derivative or vibing games.

KODY:

Yes. Right.

CAT:

I guess, you know, with sort of inherent queerness of EarthBound, it makes sense that the similar genre is one that's detected via "vibes".

KODY:

Yes.

New Speaker:

And not any definable thing.

KODY:

<laugh> Very much through "vibes". Yes. I would say. <Laugh>.

JESS:

You have a MOTHERlike game of your own in development as well.

KODY:

Oh! Its name is Gnomonic and, uh, it sounds weird and that's because it is <laugh>.

JESS:

Tell us a little bit about it. What's Gnomonic about?

KODY:

So, I'd like to keep it a little more vague, but Gnomonic, on the surface - it's about a traveler who recognizes a player playing the game. And you and that traveler go on an adventure to find things from the past that have, um, some musical qualities linked to them... And you find a lot of them and go on a journey together, meet some very strange people, and you find out why you're there at all. I guess. <Laugh>

JESS:

And you have a demo that's called Half-Past Ego that is coming out later this year, right?

KODY:

Yes. Half-Past Ego will be a story that is related to the full game, but it will give you a nice snippet of what you can expect from the more central characters in the game and, uh, the kind of aesthetics of the world and the gameplay too.

CAT:

I really love a prologue-esque demo, so I I think that's a really smart play. Also, I really love the watercolor aesthetic that the entire game is rendered in.

KODY:

Oh yes! Yeah. So that's all thanks to, uh, my fiance and the artist for the game. She's always wanted to make a game that's looked like that. So it's, um, coming to fruition with this one.

CAT:

When I first read the premise for Gnomonic, I immediately thought of one of the first mother likes that I ever encountered out in the wild one that really briefly shook the Starmen community when it was coming out, because no one knew what to make of it. It was a game called Contact for the Nintendo DS.

KODY:

Oh.

CAT:

Are you familiar with that?

KODY:

Contact? I don't think I've ever heard of it. No.

CAT:

Picture it: 2006. Every EarthBound fan is trying to figure out when the heck MOTHER 3 is gonna come out. And then outta nowhere, a Nintendo-related website has a little animation of a guy who looks totally like Dr. Andonuts from EarthBound at a chalkboard, like looking at the screen.

KODY:

Oh! I think I remember that. I remember seeing that, um, thing, but I didn't know what game it was related to.

CAT:

Yeah. So there was a counter counting down and then boom! Surprise! It's a game called Contact. Distributed in the States by Atlas and made in Japan by Grasshopper Manufacturer who are-

KODY:

Oh, really...

CAT:

Responsible for the Shining Soul games. It was directed and conceived of by Akira Udea, who was best known as a Shining Soul person who did graphic design stuff for Square. And it was kind of a flop everywhere and had a bunch of potential, but felt like a half or a third of a game.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

But it dealt directly with the discussion of the player as a character and the characters in the game having various ideas about what's happening. So like, little professor character who turned out not to be Andonuts-

KODY:

<laugh>,

CAT:

-Frustratingly for everybody involved, was aware that you, the player existed and then you, on the Nintendo DS, dictated the actions of a kid named Terry. And eventually Terry realizes that you are doing something to him and that he doesn't have agency.

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

Okay. I need to play this game.

KODY:

Wow. Yes. I really need to play this game too. Wow. That's really interesting.

JESS:

This sounds amazing.

CAT:

A ton of potential that when the game ended, myself and my friends who were playing it were all like, "wait... Does... Do we?" Like... It was still going. Like we could still... Go through the areas and get in battles and gain levels and we're like, "did, did the game? Like is there really nothing else to discover here?" And there wasn't. It was just over.

KODY:

I'm checking that out for sure. Like, later today. I'm definitely gonna play that <laugh>

CAT:

Right on.

JESS:

I love those types of games though, that are really cerebral that redefine the relationship that the player has with this medium that they're interacting with. And I love the ways that storytellers, who are game developers, can interact with their audience and tell stories in these ways and really make the player a part of the story in a way that most traditional games do not. So... I added Half-Past Ego to my Steam wishlist.

KODY:

Oh, thank you.

JESS:

And I noticed that the games that it was comparing it to, one of them was Imposter Factory, which is of course the third game in the To the Moon series. And I am seeing some similarities between how you're describing Gnomonic, what Contact is like, and the themes that are in the To the Moon games. I'm curious if you've ever played those before?

KODY:

I haven't actually played To the Moon, but I know our art director has. Yes.

CAT:

Without diving too deep into a well of, of stuff that we are not ready to talk about on this show. I've often felt like MOTHER 3 is less of a game and more of an interactive story at times.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

And I think that the To the Moon Series, in a lot of ways, is very emblematic of that to the point that in the earlier entries in the series, when they introduce gameplay elements, they actually seem rather forced. Because ultimately it just wants to tell a story.

KODY:

Yeah.

CAT:

And striking that balance between interactive storytelling and gamification-

KODY:

It's difficult.

CAT:

Yeah. And it's hard to say exactly what is necessary and how to communicate to an audience the experience they're getting because what is a game, especially within this ambiguous genre of Motherlikes?

KODY:

Yes.

CAT:

It, it, it's, it's a squiggly thing. <laugh>

KODY:

Yes. It really is. Yeah. And a lot of creators want to tell a story when they make these kinds of big games too, but I think it's always difficult too to try and incorporate how the player is going to fit into that framework too. And a lot of them will incorporate the player in different ways or they will more or less ignore them and let them just, you know, become the player character that they're controlling. It's interesting how they use the player.

CAT:

Right. And per one of your bios it said intriguingly that you've done "academic research on how game stories involve their players. Focusing specifically on how players exert their power over games to influence character and stories." And I would love to hear what your personal ethos is on those concepts.

KODY:

Oh wow. You've done your research. Yeah, I did do research into that. Yeah. And I think it's very interesting in the genre of games specifically. So, when you read a book or uh, interact with media that isn't games, a lot of the time it's more of a third person act. But in games it's more of a second person thing where YOU are there either contributing a part of the story by influencing it with choices, or sometimes it can be changing the trajectory of something, but just influencing it generally. I think one of the most interesting things is when a game communicates to the player directly and when the game itself tries to influence the player, very particularly, unlike the player influencing the game. So it's more of the game very specifically trying to reach out to the YOU that is interacting with it. There are a lot of games that do that, but those are the games that have influenced me the most.

JESS:

So I watched the trailer on Steam for Half-Past Ego, and at the end of it, and I'm gonna paraphrase here, but it says something to the effect of, "I can't wait to meet you."

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

And that last line - it was really powerful because the, the trailer's very fun. It's got this cheery music, it has the really cool watercolor artwork, and there's quirky dialogue that's happening, and you kind of get the impression that this game is going to do something, it's gonna have a conversation with you.

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

But then at the end it drops that line about saying, "I can't wait to meet you." And I had to feel like in that, in that moment, that was the developer, you talking to me, the potential player. And is that what you intended by that?

KODY:

It's really up to interpretation, but I think the game will definitely <laugh> it'll... The game will explain. I think <laugh> There are going to be characters who know that you, the player, are there and maybe some of them have a lot more knowledge than the others of things.

JESS:

Yeah. <laugh> I love that. I love that so much. Another one of my favorite video games of all time is Eternal Darkness on the Game Cube. Is that one that you've played before or are familiar with?

KODY:

I think I've heard of that game, but I haven't played it myself either.

JESS:

Eternal Darkness was one of the earliest games on the Game Cube because it was originally slated to be released on the Nintendo 64. But it is a Cthulhu-type adventure game. What the game is kind of known for is the ways that it interacts with the player and the way that it kind of messes with you. There's a sanity meter that's in it, and when the character in the game witnesses something that is awful or mentally harming, it reduces the sanity meter - and then strange things begin to happen. There will be little bugs that are crawling across the screen or it starts messing with the menu system that you're playing with-

KODY:

Oh wow. Yeah.

JESS:

-And things like that. And it really kind of breaks the fourth wall and has some interactions with you directly. And I don't think anything like that ever been done in a game before.

CAT:

The closest was like the Psycho Mantis fight in Metal Gear Solid.

JESS:

Right.

CAT:

But it doesn't really hold a candle to the off the wall stuff that Eternal Darkness was doing.

JESS:

Right. And one of the things that's really cool about the MOTHER games is how it breaks the fourth wall and interacts with you directly. So like, in MOTHER 1, for example, Ninten's dad talks to YOU, the player.

KODY:

Yes.

JESS:

And has a dialogue with you. And coming out in 1989, I have to think, that must have blown some people's minds that this game was doing this - was interacting with them in this way. For Gnomonic, are you taking inspiration from moments like that?

KODY:

Absolutely. The MOTHER games are... I think a lot of people will agree when they play it that, story-wise, maybe not gameplay wise, I think the MOTHER games are going to be one of the pretty obvious large inspirations in it. It was for me, when I'm making it now, obviously <laugh> and I think one thing the MOTHER games do really well is incorporating that fourth wall breaking element while also telling a story that is emotional and really makes you connect to the characters in some way too, though.

CAT:

I feel like, especially with a person like Itoi behind the wheel, there is a sense of almost parental responsibility for the player. There is an understanding that you are investing your time, and emotions, and extending a piece of yourself into this practice.

KODY:

Yes.

CAT:

And this is not someone who has become so involved with the kind of human presupposition that, "well, video games exist and therefore it is a product that I consume just like a bag of chips," or something. This is someone who understands that narratives have an effect on people, that they have the capacity to fundamentally change the world if enough people focus in on certain elements of them. And that there is a responsibility for effectively playing god in that way.

KODY:

Exactly. Yes. I totally agree and I think you'll find that in the full game of Gnomonic there will be a lot of commentary on whether a game can be viewed as just a consumable or as something more.

JESS:

Wow,

CAT:

Fantastic. So Kody, the history of Mother Forever and how it has become this focal point for the MOTHER and EarthBound fan community is really interesting. It happened via a bunch of strange circumstances and I would love to hear your take on that journey.

KODY:

So yes, it was a lot of interesting circumstances and it all started with the thing that you brought up actually earlier, that investigation into games and how games and players interact with each other. It actually all started from that. Mother Forever started from that. It was a lot of things kind of happening at the same time. At that same time, there was an EarthBound 64 community also rising up and trying to find more information about the game. At that time, I was doing research, MOTHER wasn't going to be incorporated into that research project because I was looking more at other games, but because MOTHER obviously does that same kind of interaction too, I wanted to find if there was any direct commentary on that by Itoi in any Japanese magazine. So I actually tried looking into the interlibrary loan program with libraries in Japan, and that's how I actually found out that most of them had documented a lot of the lost EarthBound 64 information that everybody had been looking for in that community. And I was like, "oh, you know, it's all in the library in Japan actually." And everybody was like, "what?" <Laugh> And I'm like, "yeah, I know Japanese, I can go reach out to them and have them send over the copies of the information. And there's a system for that already built into the library." So even today I still do that and I reach out to the library and they send scans of information about everything from EarthBound 64, MOTHER 1, 2... everything. So they sent me scans of all the lost EarthBound 64 information from Dengeki Nintendo 64, which had something called "The MOTHER 3 Times".

CAT:

That was a magazine, right?

KODY:

Yes, that was a magazine, and it had so much information: interviews with the developers, screenshots from the games we'd never seen. And all of that was at the library. It was all there, but I just happened to be the first person to think of that because of that research project and also Gnomonic, which was a part of that research project too at one point. <laugh>

CAT:

It is incredible what you'll find in the library.

KODY:

Yes!

CAT:

For a long time I ran a podcast about, well, all of Lucasfilm, but we had a special focus on the George Lucas, Ron Howard, Bob Dolman film Willow. And, lo and behold at my alma matter, they had a early script of the film with a bunch of concept art that didn't turn into pieces of the movie, just, like, in the library.

KODY:

Wow, just there.

JESS:

It's incredible. It's like, it's a collection of information or something.

CAT:

Yeah, right? Wild.

KODY:

Who'd have thought! <Laugh>

CAT:

And of course there was a person who recently dug up the live action Sailor Moon television pilot from the nineties after like a huge breadcrumb trail and found it in the Library of Congress.

KODY:

Wow! Yeah. See, that was one of the first places I wanted to check because, like, I was making that project as an English major too. This wasn't like, <laugh>, I wasn't doing it as computer science or anything like that. I was very specifically looking into the story. So library was, uh, that was the first thing I decided to check.

CAT:

Yeah. We truly live in a different era thanks to you and all the people in the associated Mother Forever communities, there is so much more information now than there ever has been about EarthBound 64.

KODY:

Absolutely.

CAT:

For somebody who came up in the information-starved era of Starmen.net in the nineties, it's absolutely absurd. <laugh> How much information-

KODY:

Yes. How much stuff is out there. Yeah. And it's not only just me too, so many others - after this information's become more public, more people have, joined in the search for even much smaller things. Even just new scans of the things that have already been scanned and everything like that. Getting the most high quality versions of everything. And it's thanks to the whole community too, that we have this kind of information that we do now and it's really great. So I'm glad this community has been able to preserve all of this information because otherwise... Nintendo is not going to do it <laugh>

CAT:

Yeah, we're all Shigesato Itoi mining for gold.

KODY:

Exactly. <laugh>

CAT:

So from that EarthBound 64 windfall of information. What happened next?

KODY:

So, after finding all of that information, I started sharing that in the community that I was in on Discord for EarthBound 64. And everybody was like, "what, where did you get this? What what, what?!" And I was thinking about some way that I could show this to more people. And another person had approached me, their name's Orange. Orange approached me and they asked me if I wanted to become a part of creating this new website for EarthBound information. And Orange and another writer who also joined in the project, Echoes, all three of us co-founded Mother Forever, and they went all in writing and, um, programming a lot of different parts of the, what was the first version of the site. And I was still in college. It was hard for me to contribute, but I did a lot of translations of all the information that was coming out at the time from the Hobonichi MOTHER Project, which also started at the same time, just completely randomly.

CAT:

Right.

JESS:

Wow.

New Speaker:

As we started Mother Forever.

CAT:

Which, I should add - I don't think we've ever said this on the show before: Shigesato Itoi's company, Hobonichi - his company, is a whole separate conversation that we may address at some point. It's very fascinating. So Shigesato Itoi owns half of the rights to EarthBound and all of MOTHER.

CAT:

Yes.

KODY:

So he can do more of whatever he wants in terms of marketing the game, seemingly than anybody could ever do with any other piece of, say, Nintendo property. And they went full tilt into just producing EarthBound stuff.

KODY:

Basically.

CAT:

Officially. Producing things that I could never dream of. Like recreations of items from the game, to scale, made of gold <laugh>

KODY:

Yeah. It's such a nice coincidence that that happened almost exactly at the same time as we started creating Mother Forever, because we were there to make sure everybody knew that it was happening too, and sharing that with everybody. And I was able to translate their announcements. It was just such a good coincidence. And once the ball started rolling with making the site and doing the translations, and I was able to post all my new information that I'd been getting from the library, eventually Echoes and Orange have moved on to do different things, but I've still been here and maintaining the site and upgrading it with new things and making the Mother Direct presentations too.

CAT:

Yeah. Which is an incredible labor of love and a real gift to this community that does prompt me to ask in some ways, like, how can the community give back to YOU for all the hard work YOU put in to uplift and continually expand this community?

KODY:

<laugh> Well, I mean, you don't have to go out of your way to support me. I'm trying to do it out of... I wanna give back to the community that really helped build me as a person when I was younger. And I mean, the only real thing YOU could do, for anybody that's interested is, you know, wishlist my game. And if you're interested in MOTHER, you might like it. Maybe. <Laugh>

JESS:

Yeah. Everybody go out right now on Steam and wishlist Gnomonic and Half-Past Ego.

KODY:

<laugh>.

CAT:

Easy-peasy.

KODY:

<laugh>. So Mother Forever, I'm gonna be working on it for the foreseeable future. I don't expect to slow down or anything. It's so amazing to be able to interact with people like you and everybody else in this community because everybody has a different way they interact with these games and make things for them as artists. And, you know, that's what the Mother Directs are all about. And that's why I continue to work on the website too. It's just all really awesome to me.

CAT:

Kody, another one of your bios, it says that you, "love learning about and playing niche forgotten and leftover translations and localizations." Obviously we've talked a bit about EarthBound 64.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

But I, as a aficionado of forgotten media, I'm really curious what some of your favorites are in terms of forgotten or leftover translations or localizations.

KODY:

So, there's one forgotten game that's... It's,been around on YouTube sometimes I think there used to be a video about it back in the day, but... I don't know why I find this game so interesting and it's Takeshi's Challenge - well that's how it's translated here. That game is kind of like an anti game in a lot of ways - and it's so bizarre and strange. And it's funny how it's kind of an anti-MOTHER in some ways too, because it's also made by a celebrity in Japan Beat Takeshi and it's just kind of off the wall goofy in weird, weird ways. <laugh>

CAT:

I've never heard of this. What... What is it? <laugh>

KODY:

Oh! Oh, you've never heard of - Okay. So Takeshi's Challenge is basically it's a Famicom game that is about a businessman who loses his job, and doesn't really like anything that he's doing. It doesn't really have a very deep story. You kind of have to dig to realize that point at all. But, the game is insanely hard and it uses - it's one of the only games that uses the Famicom microphone and it uses it in a very frustrating way.

CAT:

Ha!

JESS:

Whoa.

KODY:

You have to like sing into the microphone during karaoke at one part and you have to play pachinko to lose all your money so you can go to a foreign country and find treasure. It's really strange. <laugh>

JESS:

Oh my gosh. Wow.

CAT:

Now I wanna step in here to explain to people who might not have followed that necessarily. Right. The NES is a very specific thing and nothing about it changed much in America, but the Famicom went through a bunch of mutations over in Japan.

KODY:

Yes.

CAT:

One of which involved having little onboard microphones on the actual controllers for the system.

KODY:

Right. Yeah. Most games didn't use it very much.

CAT:

So this is news to me and is blowing my mind.

KODY:

<laugh>. Yes. It's such a strange game and I definitely recommend checking it out, but a playthrough of it is very difficult. So <laugh>, I don't know about that, but-

JESS:

Yeah, I can imagine.

KODY:

At least watch somebody play through it just to see. There is a fan translation of it out there, but it has never been officially translated. So that's one of those leftover games that <laugh> I like to look into and play.

JESS:

I love the idea of having to go to a pachinko parlor and lose all your money to advance the story of the game.

JESS:

Yes.

KODY:

Like it goes against everything you're taught as a gamer.

KODY:

Exactly!

JESS:

Where it's like, "I want to like, you know, figure out the way to game this system and get as much money as I can." No! You gotta lose it all-

KODY:

Nope. You have to lose it all.

JESS:

-So you go to the next place.

KODY:

And you actually have to yell into the microphone as you're losing the money because you're like frustrated at losing. You know? And that's how you progress that part.

CAT:

Is there any onscreen indication that you're supposed to do that?

KODY:

No. You have to figure this out also.

CAT:

<laugh>.

KODY:

Yeah. That's why I said it's like an anti game in a lot of ways.

CAT:

<laugh>

JESS:

That is so wonderful.

KODY:

<laugh>

CAT:

Incredible. Incredible! Why did they never port this to the 3DS?

KODY:

There is actually a port to mobile devices, but again, only in Japan. Unfortunately.

CAT:

<laugh>

JESS:

Why has nobody else done something like this before?

KODY:

I really wish I could, honestly. <laugh>

CAT:

Well, to be fair, I feel like WarioWare and also Silent Hill: Shattered Memories on the Wii did a lot of work to this end. If you haven't played that Silent Hill game, Silent Hill fans, wow. Go find yourself a Wii. It's probably one of the greatest experiences that that console ever put forth - and it's only possible with that weird technology. 'Cause sometimes you'll be playing with your Wiimote and all of a sudden it'll start ringing like a telephone. So you have to put it up to your ear and listen to what it's saying.

KODY:

Wow, I didn't know that. That's really interesting.

JESS:

I saw on your site one of the games that you like or was influential to you was Dokidoki Literature Club.

KODY:

Yes, absolutely.

JESS:

And that's a game... I did not finish it. <laugh>.

KODY:

Right.

JESS:

I started, I played a little bit and I was like, "nope, this is getting too weird for me."

KODY:

Yeah, it gets pretty weird.

JESS:

"I'm gonna stop this." So when you said "anti game", that was the first thing I thought of.

KODY:

<laugh> It's even more anti game than that because this game doesn't give you any indication, Takeshi's Challenge is: you just kind of have to figure it out.

CAT:

I mean, they're not wrong. They said it was a challenge.

KODY:

It IS a challenge. <Laugh>

CAT:

So one last thing before we go. Nintendo Force Magazine is producing a fascinating-looking book called "The Impact of Iwata", which has a whole chapter on EarthBound-

New Speaker:

Yes.

New Speaker:

-And Iwata's work re-engineering that game. I understand that you were invited to "lend your perspective for the book." I don't know what that means, Kody - what have you contributed to this forthcoming book?

KODY:

<laugh> Well, there are perspectives from a lot of people who were influenced by Iwata himself or just his legacy. And I'm contributing one part about how I've been influenced personally. And even one person I talked to that was influenced by Iwata himself too.

CAT:

That's awesome. And of course everybody can expect more information about that book when it hits the stands effectively or however it is that Nintendo Force publishes that and makes it available for the general populace to buy copies. So Kody-

KODY:

Yeah?

CAT:

We did the 2023 Mother Direct. You've got the Gnomonic demo headed for the fourth quarter of this year.

KODY:

Right.

CAT:

What else awaits you in the near or present future and what else should people who are listening be aware of in terms of you, your projects, and where they can find you on the internet?

KODY:

You can find me and the projects that I work on... I think the best way is just by going to - for Mother Forever, probably our Tumblr is gonna be where we'll be trying to post a lot of stuff in the future. And for my projects with my games, we actually have a newsletter you can sign up for. If you just go to nokogodo.com, that's our company website. You can just register there and find out all that new stuff. But in the future, I'm just gonna be working on the full game of Gnomonic. 

[Upbeat music starts playing under hosts]

KODY:

So, gonna keep going till it's done. It's been in my head for probably four years at this point. So I'm gotta keep going and finishing it. <laugh>

CAT:

Amazing.

JESS:

Awesome.

CAT:

I cannot wait to play it.

[Upbeat music swells]

CAT

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is made possible thanks to the generous support of our Patreon Producers: Amber Devereux, Becky Scott Fairley, Bob Hogan, C B, Joe “Tank” Ricciardelli, Josh King, McDibble Deluxe, MjolnirMK86, Patrick Webster, Sean Hutchinson, Sean T. Redd…

And our Super-Deluxe Executive Patreon Producers: BigBadShadowMan, Marcus Larsson, and Jaimeson LaLone

JESS

You can join the team at Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia! And if you think “MOTHER,” She Wrote is simply smashing, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser  - and be sure to subscribe via your favorite podcast player.

CAT

This series is recorded and produced in Orlando, Florida and Louisville, Kentucky on lands stolen from their Indigenous people: the Timucua and Seminole, and Shawnee, Cherokee, Osage, Seneca-Iroquois, Miami, Hopewell and Adena.

JESS

Acknowledgement of the first peoples of these lands, and the lasting repercussions of colonization is just the beginning of the restorative work that is necessary. Through awareness, we can prompt allyship, action, and ultimately decolonization. 

CAT

For links to aid Indigenous efforts and to learn more about the first nations of the land where you live: visit omniverse.media/landback

JESS

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is written, produced, and performed by me: Jessica Mudd.

CAT

And me: Cat Blackard. Our original score is composed and performed by Jess. 

JESS

Special thanks to Kenisu for his invaluable work translating the MOTHER Encyclopedia. Find a link to his translation, other media we’ve referenced, and full episode transcripts at mothershewrote.earth

CAT

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is not affiliated with Nintendo, Shigesato Itoi, or any rights holders of the MOTHER and EarthBound intellectual properties. Please play the games' official Nintendo releases.

[Omniverse Audio Brand]