TRANSCRIPT

[Omniverse Audio Brand]

[90s phone ring and pick up]

CAT

Hey, this is Cat!

JESS

And Jess

CAT

You know, “MOTHER,” She Wrote is free to listen to, but it’s not free to make.

JESS

So please consider supporting our work on Patreon.

CATYou’ll get early, ad-free episodes of this show and all the storytelling podcasts we create. 

JESSHead to Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia to chip in and join our community of world-saving wunderkind.

CAT & JESS

Love youuuu.

[phone disconnect sound]

[Dimensional Slip theme begins]

DIMENSIONAL SLIP HOST

You cast your onyx hook into the ocean of consciousness and slide beyond… into another dimension.

A dimension of sound, a dimension of dreams, a dimension of love

You’re crossing over into a realm of insightful interviews, expanding the themes and discussions of the MOTHER series. You’ve just been transported… through a dimensional slip.

[Dimensional Slip theme fades out]

JESS

Welcome to Dimensional Slip, intermittent interludes in “MOTHER,” She Wrote’s journey - where we speak with guests from a multitude of backgrounds and further explore the themes, media, and fandom that make up the tapestry of the EarthBound experience. 

I’m your diligent delver into documentary departures, Jessica Mudd. And with me as always is...

CAT

The lurker on your fansite, an activated EarthBound advocate - poised to PK Siege. Are you there Nintendo? It’s me, Cat Blackard.

JESS

Well… We’ve been hyping up this moment throughout this season, but the time is finally nigh: the feature film documentary EarthBound, USA is here!

CAT

Or at the least, very intensely close as of this episode’s release. It debuts November 27th, 2023. You can find where to watch it and more at EarthBoundUSA.com.

JESS

EarthBound, USA tells the story of MOTHER fans in America - and how an eccentric game that was a commercial flop became a cult sensation and cultural touchstone that’s changed lives and influenced, at this point, multiple generations of people.

CAT

But most of all, it’s a personal story of how a heartfelt piece of art made a powerful connection with young people, and how that first generation of EarthBound fans forged lifelong friendships, partnerships, and families through their bond over these games. 

JESS

In this Dimensional Slip we’re speaking with the director of EarthBound, USA, Jazzy Benson, to discuss the film, she and her team’s incredible decade-long journey to create this amazing work of multimedia art, and the ways that art, artists, and fans inform and inspire one another.

[The Mother’s Day Times theme starts]

CAT

But first - it’s time to check in with community news in The Mother’s Day Times!

JESS

We’ll hit play on that right now.

[The Mother’s Day Times fanfare swells and ends]

JESS

Our audio adventure through EarthBound Beginnings will return in the new year - but that doesn’t mean that you’ve got to wait for more fun facts!

CAT

Heck no! [Laughs] We’ve mentioned how in these games, names are often references, and Biozilla has unearthed a reference that is total news to me: Tom Garrickson.

JESS

Tom Garrickson, the Youngtown boy who loves to introduce himself? The older brother of the psychic baby?

CAT

Yup! Sly Biozilla noticed that in MOTHER, Tom’s name isn’t Garrickson, it’s Gullickson - which at first glance might seem like it’s just a Japanese pronunciation of an English name, but it’s not! It’s literal. It turns out that young Tom Garrickson is likely named after American Major League Baseball pitcher Bill Gullickson, who played for Japan’s oldest baseball team, the Yomiuri Giants from 1988 to 1989 - and, according to The Complete Guide Book of MOTHER, Shigesato Itoi is a huge Giants fan!

JESS

Well… okay! Home run, Biozilla!

CAT

That’s not even the only Giants reference! In the MOTHER Encyclopedia, one of Ninten's prized possessions is a baseball signed by legendary Giants player Shigeo Nagashima, aka “Mr. Giants”, who once sat next to Ninten at a Major League game. Ninten recognized the Japanese third baseman, because he'd seen him featured in a baseball magazine.

JESS

Who’d have thought that this game heavily featuring baseball bats would actually reference the sport?!

CAT

Wild, right? But hey, what goes around comes around. The tune of the Eight Melodies was adapted into a baseball chant in Japan.

JESS

What?! [Laughs]

CAT

It’s true. [Laughs] You can look it up on YouTube. Meanwhile, here’s a melodious musing - as we’ve mentioned in the past: these games, especially EarthBound, often sample or otherwise musically reference existing songs. 

JESS

Yeah, you’ve been teasing out how that’s something we’ll talk about when we get there. I see your point… but I’m tired of waiting.

CAT

Well wait no more, my love. We’ve got a letter that’s prompted me to share a soundalike surprise. I’ve been sitting on for far too long. Astute listener Lily wrote in and said: “I was listening to the song “Trans-Europe Express” by Kraftwerk and realized that the intro to the song is exactly the same as the intro to the Gold Mine soundtrack in Earthbound. You know, the cave with the third strongest mole. It could be total bunk - I can’t find anything on the internet connecting the two. But y’all know absolutely everything Earthbound. Is this a music connection or am I completely mistaken?” Well… Lily - I am delighted to say that you’ve won two tickets to sound-alike city, USA, compliments of the Trans-Europe Express! You’re totally right. I’m a Kaftwerk fan and have been delighted by this for years, while also being shocked that I’ve never heard anyone else make the comparison. I was gonna bring it up next season, but you know what, now’s the time! I’m really glad you wrote in. It’s a thing, folks! Lily and I say so. The Hip Tanaka score from EarthBound, commonly known as “Deep in the Gold Mine”, opens with an interpolation of the opening to Kraftwerk’s “Trans-Europe Express”. I’m not citing a source, I’m just telling you what my ears hear. Here’s “Trans-Europe Express”:

[Plays a clip of the opening notes to “Trans-Europe Express” by Kraftwerk]

CAT

And here’s “Deep in the Gold Mine”.

[Plays a clip of the opening notes to “Deep in the Gold Mine” from the EarthBound score]

CAT

As you can hear, they’re not identical, but - especially when you listen in the context of these full songs - it seems more than likely that this 1990s video game, made by music nerds who are known for referencing other music, is directly referencing one of the most important electronic albums of the 1970s.

JESS

Now, EarthBound’s score gets a lot of attention because of its unconventional use of actual audio sampling, but that’s not what this is… 

CAT

Right, in this case… well, it’s different enough I suppose it could just be called an homage, or even just a nod, but arguably it could be considered “interpolation” - which is re-recording a component of a song, not necessarily identically, and restructuring it into the body of a new song. Like, pop music is doing that… all the time these days and actually interpolation plays a big part in the score to MOTHER 3. But, you know, [laughs] we’re getting very much getting ahead of ourselves. Consider this a preview of the kinds of audio archeology that awaits us in future seasons of this show. Ace ears, Lily! Danke schoen.

JESS

These games are so deep, the digging may never end. But if we dig together, who knows what we’ll find! Remember, you can write to dearmothershewrote@gmail.com to share MOTHER memories and more. OR you could join the discussion on the Omniverse Discord. Mouse recently shared with us this big win. They said: “I just beat MOTHER for the first time ever after many, many, many years of being an Earthbound fan. I'd always struggled to get into it, because of the obvious reasons to struggle getting into it. I used Starmen.net maps for help, which made a huge difference for my sanity, but more than anything I'd really like to thank Cat and Jess for doing this podcast. It inspired me to give it another try and the amount of time they spent talking about both the story and the weird little mechanical gimmicks and nuances really helped me finally get through something I've been wanting to do for a long, long time. I will always remember you as part of my lifelong Earthbound passion. It was fun trying to catch myself up enough to get to the episodes, and now I'm excited for y'all to catch up and finish the series so I can hear your thoughts and insights!” Thanks Mouse! That’s so cool!

CAT

Yes! Thank you so much, Mouse!

JESS

We’re so glad to be a part of your experience and I’m super excited to finish this game myself and share what we discover. 

CAT

So with that, we’re going to bundle up for the winter and finish up our EarthBound Beginnings season. There’s likely to be a Dimensional Slip or two between then and now, time will tell.

JESS

Speaking of telling - tell your friends about this show! Or tell the internet by writing reviews and rating episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Podchaser! 

CAT

It’s really a big help. We’ll keep you posted on our socials and in future Mother’s Day Times installments to share the latest and when to expect the release of our final EarthBound Beginnings arc. But until then…

[Mother’s Day Times outro fanfare starts playing]

CAT & JESS

We’ll see you next times!

[Mother’s Day Times outro fanfare swells and fades]

CAT

As we’ve mentioned multiple times on this podcast, the history of the MOTHER series, especially its history in America, can be complicated and convoluted. 

JESS

Mmmhmm. A lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of zigging, zagging, games industry marketing mess-ups, cancellations, fan campaigns, fansites... 

CAT

It’s a hot mess. And EarthBound, USA does a spectacular job of somehow telling a story set inside that hot mess. The film brilliantly highlights a beautiful human experience against the backdrop of all this chaos and capitalism. 

JESS

Wow, you know, sounds a lot like the MOTHER games!

CAT

Fancy that! If you’ve listened to past “MOTHER,” She Wrote episodes, you’ll be able to follow along with this interview just fine, and you won’t need to have watched the film beforehand either. 

JESS

However, we did do a quick and dirty MOTHER timeline in our last Dimensional Slip episode, the one with Kody Nokolo - so if you’d like a refresher, that’s the place to go to. 

CAT

The main thing that I want to preface this interview with is emphasizing what a true moment this movie is for EarthBound fans! Our story is a hard one to tell, and now it’s not just been told, but it’s been told as a genuinely engaging piece of media that stands on its own. You could hand this movie to anyone - parent, child, gamer or not - and they’d… get it. What’s more, this film bridges the gap between Shigesato Itoi and the Americans whose lives his art changed. It culminates in a conversation between them. That’s huge. This is the first time those worlds have collided - overcoming the barriers of language, culture, and the distance between creators and fans.

JESS

Yeah. I’ve watched a lot of video game documentaries and I can honestly say this is the best one. Period. It’s mindbogglingly good. And, gosh - I wasn’t a part of this community growing up, but I was a nerdy kid on the Internet in the 1990s, and I feel seen by this movie too. It’s not only a definitive documentary for the fandom - It’s a document of a time and place; an incredible and hard to explain world that doesn’t exist anymore. 

CAT

Yeah, baked into the fabric of the film is a portrait of the early internet age, across dial-up modems and in chat rooms. EarthBound, USA shares that very specific lived experience in a powerful way that preserves and shares not just what it looked like, but what it felt like.

JESS

Part of what makes this film so unique and able to really bring all of this to life - is that this documentary isn’t made of only interviews and archival footage, they’ve actually filmed narrative reenactments, so you can follow the film’s characters through their lives and step into their worlds: through teenage bedrooms, video game stores, and into Nintendo’s offices… while they’re being harassed by children calling to demand the localization of a video game… [Laughs] There’s nothing like it.

CAT

Yeah. I was one of those kids! 

JESS

Well, did you threaten a Nintendo employee?

CAT

Eh. I don’t remember. I’d like to think I was very polite… but who can say. I still have a dismissive letter from them.

JESS

Aww… All these poor children without their MOTHER.

CAT

Just like Youngtown. Terrible tragedy. 

JESS

[Laughs]  Well, on this show, we’ve talked about the co-founders of Starmen.net, Reid Young aka Reidman, and Clyde Mandelin, aka Tomato. They’re a huge part of why people in the West know anything about these games. Getting to know them via the documentary and live through all of these experiences with them is really incredible. 

CAT

It’s true. And, you know, it’s funny. I also got to know them through this documentary. But not by watching it. [laughs] Back in… I wanna say 2014… I caught wind that Fangamer had started filming an EarthBound documentary… So I flew to Fangamer’s home base in Tucson, Arizona to be interviewed for it! That was the first time I met those folks - and Jazzy.

JESS

But Cat, I’ve seen this film! You’re not in it. 

CAT

Ah well… as we’ll hear from Jazzy, documentaries take a lot of twists and turns to find their final narrative. After a decade of filming, there’s a lot of interviews and material that didn’t make the final cut - but that makes for a wealth of bonus content on the physical media release.

JESS

Tell me more…

CAT

Well, I hear that the interview with me is on the Bluray, DVD, whatever… Though, after all this time… it doesn’t look or sound like me. Let’s call it a prior evolution; the Meowth to my Persian. 

JESS

The NES to your SNES.

CAT

Ha ha! Even better! Just you wait until I upgrade with that 64DD.

JESS

[laughs] I’ll believe it when I see it. 

CAT

Fair enough. But you never know! Just as MOTHER 3 eventually materialized on the Game Boy Advance after an uncertain fate, EarthBound, USA was in production for a decade - during which it grew and transformed into the beautiful beast we’ve borne witness to. It was initially part of a Kickstarter that Fangamer put on called “You Are Now EarthBound” which contributed to the creation of a whole slew of amazing EarthBound material - including Clyde Mandelin’s Legends of Localization book, the first Camp Fangamer convention, a beautiful EarthBound Handbook exploring the game, and a lot of other neat pieces of MOTHER material. 

JESS

Good things truly do come to those who wait and some things are too cool to die.

CAT

Precisely. Fortunate that MOTHER fans know that patience and perseverance pay off.

JESS

Oh yeah, MOTHER fans love the long game. For example, before devising EarthBound, USA and Camp Fangamer, Jazzy Benson and friends made a series of web shorts called EarthBound Saga. She and her brother started making the first installment when she was five, and then kept making them off and on into adulthood. 

CAT

Yeah!EarthBound Saga was some of the first major EarthBound fan videos on YouTube! It’s basically like a surreal, b-movie adaptation of EarthBound, that ups the ante with every installment. 

JESS

You know… there’s just something about these games…

CAT

Yeah… [laughs] something really special that inspires fans to take creation into their own hands. And that’s something we discuss in this interview.

JESS

Speaking of the interview, isn’t it time?

CAT

Yup! It’s time.

JESS

Okay! Let’s get Jazzy on the line!

CAT:

Hi, Jazzy. Welcome to "Mother," She Wrote!

JAZZY BENSON:

Hello!

CAT:

We have a very important first question that we ask everyone, which is: what is your favorite pizza?

JAZZY BENSON:

Well, I have to stay away from pizza these days. I'm getting old and my body is changing <laugh>.

JESS:

Oh no!

JAZZY BENSON:

But when I can afford the pain of pizza, I usually go with, uh, pepperoni and pineapple.

CAT:

Hmm!

JESS:

Good choice!

CAT:

But not ham and pineapple - an important distinction. Pepperoni.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah, I feel like ham is too sweet.

JESS:

Spicy from the pepperoni.

CAT:

Yeah.

JESS:

The sweet from the pineapple.

CAT:

Yeah.

JESS:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

Pepperoni, pineapple, some kind of jalapeno, and then dip that thing in some ranch.

CAT:

Oh, whoa! Whoa!

JESS:

Oooh.

JAZZY BENSON:

I know. I... got a little bit crazy.

JESS:

You've never heard of that before?

CAT:

I, yeah, I've never - I've never heard of that before.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh>.

CAT:

Jazzy, let's discuss the history of you and EarthBound.

JAZZY BENSON:

How far do you wanna go back?

JESS:

<laugh>.

CAT:

All the way Jazzy

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh> I first played EarthBound in '95. I was a little kid. I actually didn't know how to read at the time, so I would play it with my brother and we'd play it with our dad. So our dad would play the game actually for us. We would walk around and we would, you know, talk to different NPCs and engage with the story and our dad would be the one kind of reading the characters and he would do like, funny voices and stuff. And yeah, it's a fairly long game, so I think over time we wanted to keep playing it, but he would like be at work or he, you know, was busy with other things. And eventually my brother and I just actually learned how to read while playing the game. 'Cause we just wanted to play it. For my family, it was this odd gaming experience. We didn't really have that with other games - because we were learning how to read while playing this game I think our mom, like, allowed us to play it as much as we wanted to, which wasn't the usual thing for video games in our house. We had like, you know, you could play games for a couple hours a day sort of rule.

CAT:

Right.

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

But yeah, EarthBound was like a strange anomaly in the gaming aspect of my childhood and I just fell in love with it. I think for me, EarthBound was the first deeply emotional experience I ever had with a piece of media. And for that to happen at a very young age, uh, it was very, I guess I would say like profound or formative. The ending of the game. I remember like crying as a, as a child and I didn't understand why I was crying and-

CAT:

Wow.

JAZZY BENSON:

-That experience, like I think adults have that sometimes, right? <laugh> Like, you start crying, you don't know why. And when I look back now, I think I was crying 'cause I was experiencing some level of nostalgia, but I was like five years old.

JESS:

Did your brother and your dad have a similar reaction playing it as well? Like, is this an experience that you all kind of all had collectively?

JAZZY BENSON:

I don't think so. I, I think I had a much more visceral experience, but it did move them for sure. I remember when I was crying <laugh>, I like went to go find my dad. I was like running through the house trying to find my dad. 'Cause like, "I'm crying, I don't know what to do!" And, uh, I find my dad and he's like, "what's, what's wrong?"<Laugh> "Why, why are you crying?" And I was just like, "it's so beautiful!" And I was like, trying to explain the ending of the game.

CAT:

Wow.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah, he just kind of was like, "oh yeah, that's a really good game." Like, he, he really enjoyed it too, you know? And so I think it was, it was a connection, but I don't think anybody in the house had as much of a mind altering experience, I guess. I don't wanna oversell it, but it was very profound, you know? It was just like one of those things that sticks with you.

CAT:

Uh, yeah...

JESS:

Yeah. I think I know what you mean. <laugh>.

CAT:

<laugh>.

JAZZY BENSON:

I was experiencing a lot of different weird types of media at that time, around that same age. I was like experiencing Army of Darkness on the Sci-Fi Channel. So...

CAT:

<Laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

Just like very strange, weird combinations of genre.

CAT:

Boy, that specific combination sure does show in your work. <laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. <Laugh>. Yeah, I can see that.

CAT:

So how did EarthBound Saga start and what did it become?

JAZZY BENSON:

I think most people know of it as just like a YouTube series, but for me, EarthBound Saga starts in 1995, not long after my brother and I played Earthbound with our dad. We were like, "we really wanna make a EarthBound movie." And so he got the VHS camera out and my brother Robbie dressed up as Ness and I think I was kind of loosely directing as a five-year-old.

CAT & JESS:

<Laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

And saying like, you know, "you do this." And like, our mom plays the mom and the goal was just let's make an EarthBound movie. That was it. We didn't really think too deeply about it. It was just, "hey, this sounds like fun." The whole thing was pretty much beat for beat, what you experienced in the beginning of the game: meteor crashes, Ness wakes up, asks the mom, "can I go out and check this out?" She says, "sure." And then he leaves. And I think at that point we just somehow got distracted as kids do <laugh> and just like completely lost track of this movie. And then it just lived on a VHS tape in our closet for the next 10 or so years. And then... My brother and I are now teenagers and we have a friend, Jon Magram, who's over at our house and we're showing him our old movies and stuff. And he sees this tape labeled "EarthBound", and he's like, "is this... The game?" And we're like, "oh, it's, it's uh, this movie we tried to make." And he's like, "we should watch this!" So we showed it to him and he thought it was really funny. And, uh, we had all just discovered Ed Wood and like Tim and Eric and we were just really into kind of campy meta comedy. So somebody must have said, "we should just keep making this movie." <Laugh> "We should just keep making this EarthBound movie!" And so we did it, just in the same spirit that we did when we were kids, and it was just friends making a movie and not really caring one way or another if it's good. We edited that together, put it up on YouTube, which had just come out at that time, and somehow it ended up on Starmen.net and people really liked it. So we, we just kept making more and more chapters and slowly the production value just increased over time. The joke eventually became, "well, what if we went all in on this and really just tried to make this as fun and extreme as possible?" And I think at that time too, I had just rediscovered the Evil Dead series and I was really taken by the history of those films and Sam Rami, Robert Tapert, and Bruce Campbell and just that group of friends that kind of had this fun, DIY, independent spirit with making movies.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

Where, when you watch those Evil Dead films, even Army of Darkness, which has a much larger budget, I really get a sense from those movies that this is like a really fun group of friends who love making movies together.

CAT:

Agreed.

JAZZY BENSON:

So I think we just really wanted to do that and it just ended up being an EarthBound thing. <laugh>,

CAT:

Yeah.

JESS:

Totally.

CAT:

I mean, gosh, you sure did. To an extent that the general public doesn't even truly have access to realizing just yet. The fifth installment of EarthBound Saga was debuted in a demo form at Camp Fangamer '15 and has since not materialized, but, uh, it is Jazzy, it is an achievement in buckwild, gonzo filmmaking especially in the fan film genre. You took this premise and drove it squarely off the rails in an amazing way.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh> I wish I could translate... Um, you're making me blush. I wish I could...

CAT:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

I wish I could, uh, show that to your audience. Thank you! Yeah, it has popped up in other areas. We took it on a very short little tour to different video game conventions. It first appeared at Camp Fangamer. For the chosen few who have been able to, to access it, they seem to really enjoy it. We'd have plans to put it out... It's just the plans haven't really lined up yet, as sometimes happens with films, especially EarthBound movies. <laugh> Seems the timeline drags on for a very long time. <laugh>

JESS:

Well, it's really charming watching you all grow up as the production value increases. Uh, it's kind of a, like a meta story in a way because you're talking about, you know: EarthBound, a story where some kids grow up in a big way, and here you all are sort of demonstrating that in this metacontextual method.

JAZZY BENSON:

Somebody once said to me, "it's kind of like you're doing the Boyhood of video game movies."

CAT:

<laugh> Yeah! That's what you're doin'.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh>. And I thought that was really funny. I was like, "oh, oh yeah, yeah! That is what we're doing. That's completely intentional. Yes."

CAT:

<laugh>.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. It really is just born out of friends wanting to make movies together. And when you're dealing with a story that, yeah, dealing with coming of age themes that comes through in a really interesting way. So I'm glad that that spoke to you.

CAT:

Yeah. But those humble beginnings have <laugh> steered your life towards a, what I feel is genuinely a true achievement in documentary filmmaking with EarthBound, USA.

JESS:

A stunning piece of work.

JAZZY BENSON:

Thank you.

JESS:

Jazzy, how did you conceive of the idea to make this documentary? Or what was sort of the genesis of this project?

JAZZY BENSON:

I think it was just born out of the relationship that I had with Reid Young and Clyde Mandelin, the founders of Starmen.net. You know, after me and my friends made the EarthBound Saga movies, we kind of struck up a friendship with the founders of Starmen.net. And over the years I would talk with Tomato or Reidman and I just was fascinated by the weird, like, folklore history that was behind this fan site. 'Cause growing up I had always heard on the Internet just about like, "oh yeah, there was these fan petitions," or, "oh yeah, EarthBound 64 got canceled and that upset people." And being kind of aware enough of those things as they were happening, I knew that there must have been some behind the scenes things and I just wanted to kind of learn more about that. And they were very generous with just telling me these really wild stories about guerilla marketing campaigns, and ROM hacking, and weird letters from Nintendo, and really amazing stuff that the community went through. And I was just really interested in trying to document that somehow - and better yet wanted to try to document it with like reenactments. That's kinda where the whole idea came from, was just having access to those relationships and them just being interested in seeing that happen too.

CAT:

Now, through this process, you spoke with people like Marcus Lindblom, who was the major force in localizing Earthbound in the States, and then eventually Shigesato Itoi, amongst other people, like, in-between those two tentpole people. How early into the production of this documentary were you thinking, "oh, this is a feature film and we're gonna take it all the way to Shigesato Itoi?"

JAZZY BENSON:

I thought of it as a feature film very early, but I didn't really know <laugh> how I was gonna get there. You know, I was 22 when I started this movie. I was, I was a little baby. A 22 year old trying to make a feature film about the nostalgia of looking back at childhood is, is it's a pretty tall order. And then when we had the opportunity to talk with Shigesato Itoi <laugh> none of us really knew how that was gonna fit into the documentary. We were just like, "oh, this, this will go in there. Obviously." <Laugh> "This, this is something that would be very great to have in there." And I think as it appears in the documentary, it really is authentic to what it felt like.

CAT:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

Which was kind of just like, "oh my goodness! We're just in a room with this man. And he's just very candidly talking with us about interacting with these different fan efforts over the years."

CAT:

Yeah. Yeah. <laugh> after, after the entire journey, the entire EarthBound saga, if you will - getting to that point. It's really emotional. It's really emotional seeing you all speak to him and have revelations about how this person who's influenced everyone's life is connecting with this entire piece, this entire story. But what were you feeling at the time?

JAZZY BENSON:

I think any time <laugh> I'm in situations like that, which don't happen often, it's hard not to have like imposter syndrome, <laugh> It was just really magical to sit there and watch a very natural conversation flow out between these two people, Reid and Itoi, who had kind of danced around each other for the better part of a decade. Reid of course, kind of more representing the fan efforts.

JESS:

Was there anything that he said that surprised you?

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah, I mean, the fact that he was aware of Starmen.net and had been to it... That happened very early in the interview, and I think that took everybody off guard. I think we had heard that like, "oh, he probably won't even know who any of you are." <Laugh>

JESS:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

And then to go into that and be like, "oh no, he actually, um, he's very aware."

JESS:

That's really cool.

JAZZY BENSON:

At least, it seemed that way. I'm not sure what he's aware of.

JESS:

Sure.

CAT:

What was it like interfacing with Marcus Lindblom, this person who created a text that was so influential to your young self?

JAZZY BENSON:

Well, early in the process of making the documentaries, when I first met Marcus Lindblom, he was always very generous and just a very kind man. It was kind of like, um, meeting a, a father that you hadn't met before, but yet had a big influence on your life.

CAT:

Mmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

He was just really interested in the documentary very early on. He would share a lot of stories with us and he actually came out to Tucson when we did a livestream called the EarthBound Bash when, um, EarthBound got re-released on the WiiU Virtual Vonsole at that time. So we did like a charity event with Fangamer and Marcus came out as like the special guest. It was just kind of surreal. It was like really strange to see him, not only around all these Starmen.net people, but especially interacting with Tomato, who had done the MOTHER 3 fan translation and who had analyzed a lot of Marcus's work on MOTHER 2 to EarthBound.

CAT:

Yeah.

New Speaker:

It was really cool just to see Marcus get recognition for all the work that he put into that game.

CAT:

In the final film, there are so many different pieces that all mesh together really exceptionally in terms of the narrative threads that you weave. There's a bunch of archival footage from slices of people from Starmen.net's lives as they interact with each other. There's Reid and Tomato's separate youths and journeys on their own, and then eventually coming together. And then you've also recreated their lives in kind of a fast forward miniature, in some regards, to tell this story. What was the process like for figuring out how to weave all of this together?

JAZZY BENSON:

With documentary, especially, I think I had heard early on, "oh, you just shoot a bunch of stuff and figure it out later." And so when it came to actually trying to find those narrative threads, first, myself and the team just had to identify which threads were worth trying to weave. And then once we had those, there were certain limits on each of them that made it challenging. For instance, Tomato, he's a huge part of this documentary and yet doesn't actually appear on camera doing an interview. His interview is mostly audio. So that represented a interesting challenge when it comes to how to visually represent what he's talking about. So we used archival of his home videos that he lent to us, and then just different reenactments. We're very fortunate to actually cast an actor who just happened to be a dead ringer for Clyde. It's very strange.

CAT:

It's creepy. Yeah. Like it, it is unreal. The double you found for him.

JAZZY BENSON:

I gotta give credit to Sara Luu, who's one of our producers on this. She actually had a class with Nate, that was the actor's name, and just happened to remember him. And it turned out that not only was he down to play this role, but also was, uh, a huge RPG fan and had like a Final Fantasy tattoo on his leg.

JESS:

<laugh> The set pieces and the set design is absolutely stunning. I felt like I was transported back to an EB Games back in the nineties. It was incredible. I've never seen anything like that, especially in a documentary about a video game or about video games. I like the part where Clyde is like running like holding the game reservation ticket, just like running down the street and just... delighted.

CAT:

Y'all did a great job of building the energy up to that scene.

JESS:

Such an authentic... I really, I felt the character's excitement, you know, back in that moment, like through that scene. It's wonderful.

JAZZY BENSON:

You know what's so funny is when we were filming all the EarthBound 64 stuff, I was just really tripping out on all the memories I had of running to the mailbox when I was a kid, hoping that Nintendo Power had arrived so I could go to the back of the magazine and see when EarthBound 64 was coming out in the Upcoming Games list. So like, I had that experience of just like waiting and waiting...

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

...And waiting for this thing to happen that just didn't.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

There was something really like, almost like therapeutic about being able to recreate that and then like... Kind of poke fun at it too, you know?

JESS:

Oh my god. That scene where you show like the list of games that are coming out and it has like EarthBound 64 and then it like explodes and the sound effect is like somebody taking a punch in a fighting game. Like, "baa!" It's like... I died <laugh> I was laughing so hard at that.

JAZZY BENSON:

There's so much like, um, fun kind of nineties inspiration from like old VHS tapes and stuff like that. Just like growing up in that era...

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

Of like, just weird funky adults that either were hippies or were born from the hippie generation, you know, and like them just doing really off the wall kind of stuff. Like putting sound effects everywhere where they don't belong.

CAT:

<laugh> Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

I always loved that stuff, so I'm, I'm really glad that like we were able to just kind of imbue the film with some of that energy.

CAT:

The way that you've rendered the early internet age is extremely distinct.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm.

CAT:

Especially, I mean, you're incorporating drama that happened online and doing it in a way that is visually engaging, which is... No small task. And I'd love to hear you talk about your process for figuring out how to do that and like different ways that you've kind of explored encapsulating these extremely specific experiences.

JAZZY BENSON:

It was a huge team effort. It took a lot of different people coming at it from different angles. Everything that you mentioned, Cat, I really just wanna give credit to the producers on this. The set design that Sara did. Sara Luu is an incredible production designer as well as producer. So trying to just bring those eras to life, a lot of that was her. When it came to the archival stuff, both in terms of home video as well as, you know, third party materials or stuff that was fair used for the film. A lot of that was Aaron Cargile, who's the archival producer on this. And then just trying to keep it all together... <Laugh> like we had Brittney Olsen, our other producer, who as a general coordinator was able to kind of like actually be sure all these elements were occurring in the right timing while I was just there to hopefully not drive everybody crazy with just all the different things I wanted to do as the director.

JAZZY BENSON:

When I look at a lot of like period films being documentary or traditional narrative, I just wanted to avoid any nostalgia baiting and try to just represent the time period as authentically as possible. Even if that meant making the audience sit and watch an internet connection dial up for 10 seconds. The people who did a lot of the heavy lifting on all the visual effects in this - so everything that happens on the computer screens - was handled by Steve Campos, who was an old Starmen.net person and a Fangamer fella. And then Everdread who also was a Starmen.net person, and I believe works with Toby Fox on various game-related things.

CAT:

Well, gosh, it doesn't get more authentic than those folks who were actually there as it was all happening.

JAZZY BENSON:

It wouldn't have happened without them. I mean, so much of this movie is just built around the skills that people have and the experiences that they had. It's really magical for that reason. So yeah, the, the process of how we actually tried to capture the early Internet... a lot of it was just research based, a lot of different people researching things, not least of which was Steve who was there, <laugh> and actually remembered all the different details of things. It's funny 'cause Steve and I are a bit closer in online generation than say Aaron and Sara, who are the producers. And so Steve and I would have these references to like the aesthetic of Web 1.0 that just... We couldn't quite explain without just showing to somebody who really grew up in like, the kind of post-social media era. Trying to go about that in a way that felt authentic to the period while also hopefully not being too boring... <Laugh> so much of this movie is just people sitting at computers, but we tried to make that as compelling as possible.

CAT:

Well, see that's a true fact, but also it doesn't feel that way.

JESS:

It's snappy and there's an energy to all of the set pieces in the documentary as a whole that really keeps it engaging from start to end.

JAZZY BENSON:

That's fantastic. I'm so glad to hear that. It's fun to contrast the kind of solitude one experiences at a computer with the kind of heightened sense of community on the other end of it. That's a theme that I was really fascinated with in this story. All the work that went into it was really, I'd like to think in service of trying to represent an era that a lot of people can relate to and trying to do that in a very respectful way that will hopefully be timeless. It feels good to have contributed to that.

CAT:

Yeah. It is a living document of so many things, not just the story that is advertised, but also a time and a place in a way that is really challenging to do. And really, on those early stages of the digital age, extraordinarily difficult to translate or describe.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah, back when the internet was a room in your house.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

And not something that was always in your pocket.

CAT:

The music, the score, for the documentary is done by your brother Robbie Benson, AKA Gwobs of The Super Soul Brothers who also played Ness in EarthBound Saga. And it is fan-freaking-tastic.

JESS:

It really is.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh> Robbie and everybody he collaborated with did such an amazing job on the soundtrack. His music's such a huge, important part of this project. It just carries so much of the film, especially all the... Maybe surprising drama that comes out of it. Some of that pain of just making grownup decisions. He actually has been doing The Super Soul Bross thing for... About as long as the documentary had been in production. So he's kind of been on this parallel journey. When we started the film, he was just kind of busking at the Fangamer booth at PAX. And then, you know, over the years, eventually he got to play at places like PAX and MAGFest, as I believe one of the headlining musicians. So Robbie's kind of been on this really cool path of learning about all these different people and personalities who are kind of legends within the video game music scene all the way back to like the eighties. And so, when it came time to make the soundtrack, he tapped a whole bunch of those different relationships that he had formed. He just happens to know Dave Wise, who wrote the Donkey Kong Country soundtrack.

CAT:

Gosh!

JESS:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

Dave Wise actually plays saxophone on a couple of tracks. There's a whole bunch of just easter eggs like that,

CAT:

A parallel between EarthBound and Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2, in my personal life, is... all those are games that I pressed a tape recorder up against the, uh, speakers of my television set so I could record the songs and listen to them whenever I wanted to as a child.

JAZZY BENSON:

Think so many people did that with Super Nintendo games. It's, I think it's such a testament to the limitation of that hardware and like the kind of catchy tunes that these musicians had to write early on.

CAT:

There's another figure in the mix with this score, Jason Paige, who I believe is like the primary vocalist of the original Pokemon theme song, did some work in the movie?

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh>. Yeah, he did some vocals on a original song that was written by Robbie and myself for the film. The song's called "EarthBound in the USA", it's the, the original song of the major motion picture.

CAT & JESS:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

The song is <laugh> - It's a really fun, heartbreaking tale about the plight of EarthBound fans.

CAT:

It's freaking fantastic. It was such a surprise when that appears in the movie. It was a delight. And I didn't even- I didn't recognize the voice, but just like the layers, the layers of it all, Jazzy! It's a very layered film that you've got here.

JESS:

Delightful.

CAT:

<laugh> To the extent that the average viewer will never know. But hopefully through this interview maybe can appreciate how much there is to unpack and discover about what you've made.

JESS:

Is the soundtrack for EarthBound, USA going to be available for purchase outside of the documentary?

JAZZY BENSON:

I don't know if there's any plans for that yet. I hope so. I think everybody would really love that ultimately because Robbie basically put together what's I think, the equivalent of a concept album <laugh> for, for this whole movie. It feels like its own coming of age story. It goes through so many different styles of music that kind of feel period, or like era appropriate, like dated in the best possible way. There's symphonic scores, there's...

JESS:

Mm-hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

Like kind of nineties almost. Family film...

JESS:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

...Adventure music. But then there's also like stuff that sounds like Enya, like every file he would send would just like elevate the film like way higher than we ever thought was possible. There's a ton of easter eggs in there. He has so many different melodies that he wrote for different characters, and different themes in the film, and they just appear throughout the entire soundtrack. It's really amazing.

JESS:

Oh wow.

CAT:

Jazzy, editing is very complicated. One plays with time and space and cobbling together a documentary from so many disparate sources with so much material that's been created over a huge expansive time. It is really incredible... Well, the way in which the film works, the way in which all of these sequences fit together in a way that can seamlessly tell this story through all these different mediums and feel totally natural. It's quite an achievement.

JAZZY BENSON:

Thank you. I mean, I think any documentary is like often made in the last couple years of its <laugh> of its editing. It's like, uh, when you work on it so long, you're just trying to find the story and find those threads that you wanna pull on, that are so strong, that can sustain an audience's interest for an hour and a half or, or however long. And we were very fortunate as a team to have Daniel Maggio come aboard in the last like year and a half of the project. He's just his own very accomplished filmmaker in his own right. Daniel just brought a really cool flavor to it as a filmmaker and as somebody who's been around for a lot of this EarthBound stuff. I mean, he actually plays Jeff Andonuts in EarthBound Saga 5. So he's kind of been on this earthbound journey with myself and Robbie for the last like 13 years basically.

JESS:

Wow.

JAZZY BENSON:

He was at the Camp Fangamer events. He helped out with those. He's always been a part of it and it felt very appropriate to have him on board with this.

CAT:

Well, I mean like, you know, whether you're Ness, Niten, or Lucas... No one does this alone.

JESS:

True.

CAT:

And clearly as with this film, this podcast... Literally anything I've ever done. The only way that a big vision can come together... Is working with your friends.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah! Friends! Yeah, friends are the best.

JESS:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. Anytime you can make that work. Oh my goodness.

CAT:

Now, you all had to dig through a lot of footage, not just from the characters of the film, but also Japanese material relating to EarthBound and Shigesato Itoi. What was that process like? And did you folks find anything that didn't make it into the film?

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah, there was a lot of stuff that we found. There was one clip that the team and I watched that we were all really taken by. It was like a old TV show. I think it was from the eighties. I think it was like a year or a couple years before or after MOTHER 1 and had nothing to do with the MOTHER series - but it was just Itoi and this host going back to his college town and just reflecting on his college years and his youth.

CAT:

Mmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

And during that he talks about participating in the student protests for, I believe it was just the American occupation. It was just a whole story he told about him and the students like barricading themselves in some kind of office and then like getting arrested. And the way he talked about it, it sounded like it was something that he wasn't like proud of, but it was more of like just something that happened and he doesn't romanticize it. It's kind of just like... That was something that they did at that time because they had no other choice. But then he goes on to review the different types of food that were served in the different jails that he spent nights in.

JESS:

<laugh>

New Speaker:

Oh my gosh.

JAZZY BENSON:

I really wanted to use that in there, but it just didn't really fit. But I hope that that makes it out someday, just 'cause it was really fascinating. You don't often get to hear much about Itoi as a young person kind of before he found his creative footing as a writer.

CAT:

Yeah. And yet this is something that the more I've heard, the more I'm intrigued about what autobiographical components found their way into the games. Because obviously like Itoi being a young person getting into trouble with the government, or the law, or whomever and having run-ins with the police, and authority figures, and so forth, that shows up repeatedly in each of these games.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

I believe that the original iteration, I might be wrong about this, but the original iteration of the Hippie in the first game is less of like a hippie and more of like a young protestor from the sixties, which is why he has a bullhorn to begin with. And then of course, and I don't know all the details on this, but Itoi was the editor for the bio of a famous Japanese rock and roller who is in part the inspiration for Teddy in EarthBound Beginnings... And there's this whole kind of misspent youth of Shigesato Itoi that I think is really important to understanding where these games come from. But I don't know where all it is to actually interface with it and pick that apart.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is buried in archives that unfortunately are just very difficult to get to. I certainly don't have access to them. I wish I did. I feel like so much of Itoi's, I don't know if you wanna call it political philosophy, but there, there's certainly something about his perspective on life, and power, and authority figures that just makes its way into a lot of his, his work. I think. I think that's one of the reasons I responded well to EarthBound, especially looking back at it as a teenager.

CAT:

Mm.

JAZZY BENSON:

You know, as a kid you don't really pick up on that stuff. I certainly didn't pick up on like <laugh> the political implications of a kid fighting police officers and corrupt politicians and so forth like - those are all more like adult elements in EarthBound. But I think as a teenager and then certainly as a young adult, being able to look at those and see that the story it's telling somehow is even timeless as you continue to grow up.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

I feel like Itoi he reminds me a lot of like Vonnegut or even to some extent like Thomas Pynchon, these authors who they came out of like this kind of post-war world. And so much of their attitude and perspectives kind of almost feels tied to or inspired by like the beatnik generation and people who are kind of dealing with the spiritual fallout that comes from like Atomic age and everything.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

I don't know - It's like an attitude that a lot of these authors seem to have that just kind of reverberated over the decades. And then by the eighties and nineties maybe was a little less potent and perhaps why EarthBound really stuck out.

CAT:

It's interesting to see how much of the entire mother series pulls so much from the things that Itoi finds artistically fascinating. The people that he finds fascinating, like David Lynch for example, and that sort of collage work as an auteur. We're all, as people who are like interfacing with media and interfacing with art, kind of in conversation with each other in that way. So Itoi's a fan of who he's a fan of. And then we all find ourselves as fans of Itoi. Maybe sometimes we backtrack things from EarthBound that we find out are influential,, or songs that were sampled in it or whatever, and then add them to our own personal lexicon. And we change and we grow and then we create things that are maybe like inspired in part by Itoi's work, inspired by EarthBound, inspired by Marcus Lindblom's work-

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

-That also have other things in our own personal blenders.

JAZZY BENSON:

Just you saying that reminds me of, um, like the way that pop culture is used as a narrative device is so fascinating. Like I, I really started to take note of that as I read more Thomas Pynchon's work the way he, as an author, will just like invoke seemingly random things. Like he'll just recite a whole Gilligan's Island episode or something.

CAT:

<laugh>. Wow. That is very specific! Amazing.

JAZZY BENSON:

But it's like the way that he uses it, and I think to some extent this might also be the case in EarthBound, is like the way that certain pop culture things are invoked, it's like they're trying to maybe convey a character's values, or trying to invoke a particular period, or place in time. There's like some narrative tool that they're serving. I think it's really easy to like look at pop culture references and other things and just be like, "oh, it's cool. It's, it's referencing this thing," but I feel like there's some deeper purpose to it sometimes. So I find that fascinating. I think that kind of happens in EarthBound to some extent.

CAT:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's just so much more than, let's say the way that a Disney produced film across whatever franchise, or whatever it is they're milking, will flash an easter egg to something - is not as genuine as when someone expresses fascination in their own way. The same way that Elvis loved reading Captain Marvel comics and like pulled in some - I mean, I don't know how much of this is mythologized, like my information on Elvis is like a hand-me-down of a hand-me-down - But that you could see something like that that kind of flash and style and then mythologize that within yourself. And it all kind of weaves together meaningfully. Same as the way that The Beatles are so much of a core piece of what makes EarthBound... EarthBound. Like, I don't know what Itoi's relationship is with, say, like the film Yellow Submarine. And that is in a way its own, you know, side conversation to The Beatles' musical catalog. But both seem like they may be very well woven in there together-

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

-to create this fully unique thing.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. It's interesting is like when I look at EarthBound, or other works that I really enjoy, I'm not really experiencing it from the perspective of like, "oh this is like this" or "this is like those things."

CAT:

Right.

JAZZY BENSON:

It's like so its own thing. And I feel like for me, I experience EarthBound as a work by a person who just lived a lot of life and a part of that is he experienced a lot of different things, both media that he enjoyed or protests that affected him.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

Really well-told stories are so often informed by lived experiences, even if they are still pulling from beautiful works of art or works of art that just moved you in general.

CAT:

There's so much humanity in Itoi as a person. Like he's, I guess, had the privilege of living so many lives. It seems like he always brings things back to human experiences. That he recognizes that he has been part of like media machines at different points in time. He's written advertising copy... Professionally. He also is really sympathetic towards that human beings are out there living and feeling things which is different from the experience of existence that we're marketed.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm. Yeah. Obviously I can't speak for Itoi. I've only met the man twice in my life. But from what I've observed, it seems like he is somebody who is much more interested in the average person's experience than anything else. I asked him during one of our meetings if there's anybody who could be compared to him, or vice versa. At the time I was like, "I feel like there's something kind of about you that's almost reminds me of David Lynch..." Where... I haven't met David Lynch ever in my life, I don't know what he's like as a person you meet, but <laugh>, from what I've seen, it seems like David Lynch is somebody who has a lot of different interests and engages in different creative forms. I think at that time I had learned that he was like working on building lamps or something...

CAT:

Yep. He's been known to do that.

JAZZY BENSON:

And so he just has a lot of different interests and as I had been learning about Itoi and learned that, you know, this was a man who did copywriting, he did video games, he's hosted talk shows, he's done gold mining, he's been a part of student protests, he's released a pop record, which he sings on. I was like, "it kind of seems you're almost kind of like that." And I remember him saying more or less that he doesn't really feel a strong desire to be a creator. I think he said that he thinks of himself as an average joe...

CAT:

<laughs>

JAZZY BENSON:

...Which I think is true. It's funny, it's like when when you experience somebody's art, you're like, you experience such a potent part of their personality that, if they put a lot of intimate detail into, it can be a very moving experience. And, and it's pretty easy to kind of feel like you're connected with that person on a level that <laugh> maybe when you actually meet them, you're surprised at how normal they are.

CAT:

<laugh>

JAZZY BENSON:

But yeah, kind of get-

JESS:

He seems like he's very... Down to earth.

JAZZY BENSON:

Ooh. Yeah.

CAT:

Oh, oh, oh yeah. Yeah.

JESS:

He's kind of grounded. You know, he's kind of earth-grounded.

CAT:

Earth-grounded. Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

He's very earthy. Earthy fella.

CAT:

<laugh> I mean also I guess to to your point, I feel like I've actually seen David Lynch answer that question with, "I'm just an average joe." That sounds like a David Lynch answer.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laughs>

CAT:

So it seems like an apt comparison.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. That could be. One thing I did come across in a magazine, when I was working on this movie was, um, somebody should fact check me on this, 'cause I feel like I'm not 100% sure, but... The two companies that were involved in making EarthBound: Ape and HAL were both inspired by 2001: A Space Odyssey. Ape being the apes at the beginning of the film-

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

And then HAL being the computer and I seem to recall reading a translation from a magazine that, I believe was Itoi, or somebody associated with ape. And essentially they said like, "we named it Ape because humans are always better than machines." <Laugh>.

CAT:

Wow.

JESS:

Hmmm. Interesting.

JAZZY BENSON:

And I always loved that. That was something that I couldn't find a way to make work in the film, but I always got a lot of 2001: A Space Odyssey vibes from EarthBound, especially with the ending. So it was kind of cool to see that, oh, they were all fans of Kubrick. <Laugh>

CAT:

<laugh>. We have been talking a lot about influences and so forth. There's a lot we could talk about in terms of being a creator and I would love to discuss how this experience has informed you and your creative life.

JESS:

Yeah, how have you evolved as a creator over the process of making this film?

JAZZY BENSON:

One of the lessons that I guess I learned was just what it looks like to work with a big team on something.

CAT:

Mm.

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

You know, when I started the film it was really just myself working on it. And then occasionally there'd be people who kind of step in for months at a time. But in the last four years of the project there was, you know, incrementally more people coming in and working on it full-time. I think a lot of people who grow up on the Internet creating, in my case video, people who are kind of used to doing all the things themselves - that's a double-edged sword I think.

JESS:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

You end up taking on far more than you actually can specialize in. And then one of the things that I ran into when I was working with people on this was just realizing like, "oh, I'm bad at delegating this thing." You know? "I need to learn how to do that." So I think delegation is a huge part of it. Not feeling like you're responsible for everything, which is often borne out of necessity when you're working with very small budgets or limited resources for whatever reason. So I think there was a learning curve there that eventually, um, everybody gelled really well.

CAT:

You've said, early on, that you heard somebody say just like, "just shoot a bunch of stuff and figure it out later." Is that good advice for making a documentary or is it bad advice?

JAZZY BENSON:

Just make stuff, just start making stuff. That's kind of more, I'd say the advice is like: don't wait around for the right conditions to make something. Just start doing something. Better yet, do something that you have access to the things you need in order to do it. There's so many opportunities these days when it comes to just the accessibility of video technology. You know, everybody can shoot using their phones. If you wanna tell stories using a visual medium, you can just do that. If you want to be doing storytelling as a filmmaker and making feature films, just start making stuff and testing the limits of how long you can keep an audience's attention. And don't take it personally when people are like, "this is boring." You know, <laugh>, it's really hard to make anything that's gonna keep people engaged, especially with the expectation that I think western audiences especially have when it comes to always wanting something happening in cinema. There's a lot of types of movies that I love that if they came out today just based on the way that audiences engage with the medium... Just probably wouldn't do very well or well at all. And people would probably think they're boring, even though they're incredibly interesting and exciting, I think. Do what you want, just do your own thing. Enjoy making the stuff that you wanna make and be open to criticism if you actually also want to get better at doing that.

CAT:

Mm. You've got a body of work outside of EarthBound fan content that is-

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

-Fascinating. If folks want to dig through the archives, I will link to on this episode's page a conversation that you and I had about making multimedia animation using Mario Paint as the animation medium, which is something that you do, and is deeply fascinating. Folks should go type in "Jazzy Boho" on YouTube and see the work because wow! My personal favorite is "The Millennial Mind".

JAZZY BENSON:

That's a fun one. <laugh> Talk about like "just working with what you have" - all those Mario Paint shorts that I put together, those were just made using an emulator, a little camera, and friends. So much of making anything, I think is just the relationships you have, and being sure that people are valued in that process, and keeping the scope something that's achievable.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

Making friends with the limitations that you have.

CAT:

"Making friends with them," that's... That is a good way to put it and a good way for people to think about making that necessity be the mother of invention in terms of their own creative output. .

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm. Yeah. I like to try to think of music especially, I mean all, all storytelling and communication is just different levels of vibration; rhythm, and bass. Kind of reducing everything down to that allows everything to be an instrument for you to play and tell a story with.

CAT:

Yeah. So what is next for you? What have you been working on?

JAZZY BENSON:

I've been working on a couple of different things. The next big project I'm wanting to do is a southwestern suburban cyberpunk film.

CAT:

Well, that's an incredible collection of words.

JESS:

"Southwestern, suburban cyberpunk".

CAT:

Yes.

JESS:

That's fascinating.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh>. Yeah. So if anybody's like interested in helping with that, either investing in an independent filmmaker or in general just curious and wants to lend a hand, definitely reach out. But yeah, that's hopefully something that will be able to turn into a feature film. I've just been really taken by the cyberpunk genre. I kind of fell in love with that over the course of making EarthBound, USA because I was doing a lot of research into just different ways that cinematographers handled photographing people at computers. Like how do you keep that interesting?

CAT:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

And just in the course of that led me to a lot of cyberpunk movies. And I, I use the term "cyberpunk" as kind of like a very broad thing. I think a lot of people generally think of like Blade Runner and you know, kind of dystopian society type things. But I use the term "cyberpunk," uh, kind of the broad definition that I've heard is like "low lives in a high tech society, trying to use technology to fight against corporations".

CAT:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

And so it seems to me that that's a, uh, a theme that could very much be applied to almost any decade.

JESS:

True.

JAZZY BENSON:

But that search basically just led me to find a whole bunch of movies that I had never even thought to look up. And yeah, I just fell in love with the genre, especially the really obscure ones that are made by people with, I guess, non-Western sensibilities.

CAT:

Yeah. Is this how you discovered the works of Shu Lea Cheang?

JAZZY BENSON:

Yes. Yeah. I discovered Shu Lea Cheang's work on the Internet and was just really blown away by it. I mean, she's one of the first internet artists, like she was doing online installations when the Internet was first becoming a more household thing. I feel like a lot of her work is just so prescient. Like if it were to happen today, people would be like, "this is revolutionary!" You know, <laugh>, it's like-

CAT:

Yes.

JESS:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

But you look at it in the context of being created in the late eighties, early nineties, it's, it's really outstanding. I feel like she's kind of like to cyberpunk what Agnès Varda is to the French New Wave movement.

CAT:

Oh, that's very interesting.

JAZZY BENSON:

But I feel like Shu Lea Cheang just hasn't really gotten the attention from contemporary audiences that she deserves, at least within the US. A lot of her stuff is more well known in like Europe.

CAT:

Mm. To provide a little bit of context here: Shu Lea Cheang... I didn't know her work until recently, either. Jess and I were scrolling through stuff on the Criterion Channel and saw an intriguing looking movie called Fresh Kill from the early nineties and then had our socks blown off by this visual tour de force... Dealing with like social and environmental subject matters, and also like matters of culture and race, and so forth-

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

-The likes of, which would be, as you said, Jazzy, revolutionary if it came out today, but was happening... I mean like this was filmed decades ago at this point. And I immediately thought of you, so I texted you-

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh>

CAT:

-And asked if you'd heard of her.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah.

CAT:

We're talking about another auteur filmmaker here.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah.

CAT:

Which is I think important I guess - a through line that is being addressed here in some ways - people who have relentlessly creative visions and are exploring something on their own terms outside of like say studio systems and so forth.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. And Fresh Kill, it's worth noting, Shu Lea Cheang was the director of it, but there was a different writer. So Shu Lea Cheang was the director of it, but it was written by a different screenwriter. I don't know anything about like the collaboration that they had, but I'm sure that Fresh Kill was the work of many people who brought that about though certainly, Shu Lea, her later work, or thereafter into the 2000s, I believe a lot of it is like pretty singularly her vision for things.

CAT:

Yeah. I think that's a really good point to bring up. 'Cause like I often struggle with people's focus on monolithic authors or creators in my own work, like the audio drama work that I do.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm.

CAT:

It's, you know, it is all highly collaborative and I want people to speak on that - but we don't have a media language, in terms of interpreting the ways that people talk about media around us, that doesn't center the director. And it's like something we sort of like culturally have to evolve. 'Cause even though I myself am in opposition to it, I find myself doing it.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. It's like trying to have that nuanced conversation can <laugh> can be difficult. Limits of the medium also is, just like the amount of time you have to discuss something as well within mass media, I find that really fascinatin. The ways in which technology or mass media shapes or can kind of curve a conversation in a direction that may be unintentional-

CAT:

Mm-hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

-Based on its own limits.

CAT:

EarthBound, USA for example, opens with Itoi talking about saying, "I love you" in different mediums-

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

-And how impactful it can be to say, "I love you" in something as interactive as a video game.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. You know, he's talking about... In a movie you have an actor saying that... I don't know if I've ever felt like I've had an actor in a movie telling me they love me, but in interactive mediums such as a game, at least the intention is for them to be saying that to me, the player. What does that do to the experience of engaging with that media? I don't know if that's what he meant by that, but that's one take on it that I think is... very fascinating.

CAT:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I certainly know that the first time I saw the end of EarthBound, when you get to the credits, and in the middle of the music of the credits, you hear someone say - a sound clip of somebody saying - "I miss you." Which the way it's said, which is tenderly - that's what he's talking about <laugh>. Like something like that.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mmhmm. Yeah.

CAT:

Where, you know that piece of media is likely talking directly to you.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm

New Speaker:

Or maybe reflecting your own thoughts in certain contexts.

JAZZY BENSON:

Yeah. I can't speak to, like, what Itoi or the team behind the MOTHER series was like intending or what effect they were hoping to have with say, putting "I miss you" in there - or even trying to invoke the feeling of being told "you are loved" by a video game. But as a creative, I would like to think that the best you, you can hope for in any situation is that the story you're telling is going to break through to something emotionally true, that people will wanna hold onto after they've finished experiencing the thing, whatever it is.

JESS:

Mm-Hmm.

JAZZY BENSON:

That's certainly what I'm always trying to do. <laugh>.

JESS:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

How does any step of this just try to break through to something that is emotionally true? That's kind of the power of art is that it's, it's emotional logic. It doesn't necessarily abide by data or hard facts. It's kind of like - well, when it works, it works. And that's what makes it so tricky and finicky to do as a creative person.

CAT:

Do you think that the specific way that the EarthBound series is willing to communicate to people's emotions is a part of why this fan base is what it is in terms of the people? Like how we, as fans of this game, have all been touched by it because it has shown us something that we find relatable in our hearts?

JAZZY BENSON:

I would say so. I think that's accurate. I mean, I've spoken with a lot of different people over the course of making this film. Far more interviews were done than were actually included in the final film. And every time I would ask somebody like, "what, what makes EarthBound EarthBound?" Or like, "why does this stay with you or with people?" The answer would always be similar but entirely different at the same time. Everybody had something else that they loved about this game. I'm sure you two have run into this time and time again with anybody you've talked to about this series. It's like, the way people connect with it is so unique to their experience with it. And yet there's something that ties it all together. And for me, I think I just see it as like, there's this theme of growing up... And that is inherently different for each person too. And their, their memory of growing up and what that meant to them. Exactly. But yet we all have that experience of aging.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

At a certain point that was what myself and the team kind of realized, like, "oh, that's what we're making a movie about" is it's actually just about people growing up. It's not about what makes this game, this game. It's about looking at the themes.

CAT:

And you've rendered it expertly. It is a heart-rending piece of media just as the games that launched the story that it's based on.

JAZZY BENSON:

That's high praise. Thank you very much. I'm glad it worked.

CAT:

Very much.

JESS:

You've been working on this for a long time. How does it feel to finally get across the finish line on it?

JAZZY BENSON:

Oh, it's indescribable <laugh>. It's a huge relief. Um, I'm just really happy people get to finally experience it.

JESS:

Jazzy, congratulations. It's a monumental project <laugh>.

JAZZY BENSON:

Thank you very much, Jess. I really appreciate you taking the time to watch it.

CAT:

Well, I mean like, uh, this little Kickstarter backer, I'm very plea- you know, I think most people who backed it probably didn't realize how long it takes to make a documentary and that's fine. I hear it. I hear it. I'm very pleased with the results. Thank you very much. I'm also pleased with Camp Fangamer. Great. The EarthBound Handbook? Great. I think you know what you've delivered and anybody who gives you any guff, they can come take it up with me.

JESS:

Unlike EarthBound 64, this actually came out.

CAT:

A-haha! Yeah, you got 'em there. I mean, you got 'em there <laugh>.

JAZZY BENSON:

<laugh> I don't even know how to respond to that. Oh my gosh. I feel like the only reason this film probably didn't get canceled is because EarthBound 64 got canceled <laugh>

JESS:

And the fandom couldn't deal with two disappointments of that magnitude.

JAZZY BENSON:

No.

CAT:

Yeah.

JAZZY BENSON:

No, I really think that this film came together because so many people really would not give up and it just wouldn't have happened without all those sacrifices that people put into it. So thank you. I really appreciate you both watching it.

CAT:

So you have a southwestern suburban cyberpunk film you'd like to make.

JAZZY BENSON:

Mm-Hmm.

CAT:

In terms of where people can find you, how they can interface with your work, what should people know? Where should people go?

JAZZY BENSON:

You can find me on all social media at Jazzy Boho, J-A-Z-Z-Y-B-O-H-O. Mostly post on Instagram these days... I also have my website, jazzyboho.com. You can reach out to me through... Really any of that.

JESS

Thanks so much for chatting with us Jazzy.

CAT

Yeah, thank you so much. It’s so awesome having you on the show. 

JAZZY BENSON

t’s been such a pleasure to talk with you both

CAT 

If you haven’t seen EarthBound, USA yet - get on it friends! It’s a part of this journey we’re all on together. 

JESS

Yeah, in “MOTHER,” She Wrote our big focus is exploring the story of what’s happening inside the screen - but EarthBound, USA is an essential text for understanding the impact of this series on the other side of the screen.

CAT

Head to EarthboundUSA.com to see for yourself. If it’s not out yet at the time you’re listening to this, you can sign up for notifications, and if it IS out, you’ll find links there to all the places you can watch it online.

JESS

Or where you can pick up a physical copy and see all those deleted scenes and extended interviews. 

CAT

Heck yes. I’m really excited to see even more of the Itoi and Marcus Lindblom interviews.

JESS

EarthboundUSA.com

CAT

EarthboundUSA.com. Meantime, we’ll be back in the months to come, with further adventures across Eagleland and beyond. I’m Cat.

JESS

I’m Jess.

CAT

And that’s all she wrote.

[upbeat music plays]

CAT

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is made possible thanks to the generous support of our Patreon Producers: Amber Devereux, Becky Scott Fairley, Bob Hogan, C B, Joe “Tank” Ricciardelli, Josh King, McDibble Deluxe, MjolnirMK86, Patrick Webster, Sean Hutchinson, Sean T. Redd…

And our Super-Deluxe Executive Patreon Producers: BigBadShadowMan, Marcus Larsson, and Jaimeson LaLone

JESS

You can join the team at Patreon.com/OmniverseMedia! And if you think “MOTHER,” She Wrote is simply smashing, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser  - and be sure to subscribe via your favorite podcast player.

CAT

This series is recorded and produced in Orlando, Florida and Louisville, Kentucky on lands stolen from their Indigenous people: the Timucua and Seminole, and Shawnee, Cherokee, Osage, Seneca-Iroquois, Miami, Hopewell and Adena.

JESS

Acknowledgement of the first peoples of these lands, and the lasting repercussions of colonization is just the beginning of the restorative work that is necessary. Through awareness, we can prompt allyship, action, and ultimately decolonization. 

CAT

For links to aid Indigenous efforts and to learn more about the first nations of the land where you live: visit omniverse.media/landback

JESS

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is written, produced, and performed by me: Jessica Mudd.

CAT

And me: Cat Blackard. Our original score is composed and performed by Jess. 

JESS

Special thanks to Kenisu for his invaluable work translating the MOTHER Encyclopedia. Find a link to his translation, other media we’ve referenced, and full episode transcripts at mothershewrote.earth

CAT

“MOTHER,” She Wrote is not affiliated with Nintendo, Shigesato Itoi, or any rights holders of the MOTHER and EarthBound intellectual properties. Please play the games' official Nintendo releases.

[Omniverse Audio Brand]